Immigration is Overwhelmingly Good for the United States

[Aristotle]

This is another thread where I'll likely drop articles I happen across over time. The evidence is actually quite overwhelming that immigration, both legal and illegal, is a huge boon to the US in basically all ways, and has effectively no downsides.

Immigration's Economic Impact - White paper from the White House under George Bush - Council of Economic Advisors

"Our review of economic research finds immigrants not only help fuel the Nation's economic growth, but also have an overall positive effect on the income of native-born workers."

-Council of Economic Advisers Chairman Edward P. Lazear

1) On average, US natives benefit from immigration. Immigrants tend to complement (not substitute for) natives, raising natives' productivity and income.

Annual wage gains from immigration are between $30 billion and $80 billion.

2) Careful studies of the long-run fiscal effects of immigration conclude that it is likely to have a modest, positive influence.

3) Skilled immigrants are likely to be especially beneficial to natives. In addition to contributions to innovation, they have a significant positive fiscal impact.

4) Immigrants are a critical part of the U.S. workforce and contribute to productivity growth and technological advancement. They make up 15% of all workers and even larger shares of certain occupations such as construction, food services and health care. Approximately 40% of Ph.D. scientists working in the United States were born abroad. (Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics; American Community Survey)

5) Entrepreneurial activity is nearly 40% higher for immigrants than for natives.

6) Assimilate quickly: Although 72% of first-generation Latino immigrants use Spanish as their predominant language, only 7% of the second generation are Spanish-dominant.

7) Immigrants have lower crime rates than natives. Among men aged 18 to 40, immigrants are much less likely to be incarcerated than natives.

8) Immigrants slightly improve the solvency of pay-as-you-go entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare. (Source: Social Security Administration)

9) The long-run impact of immigration on public budgets is likely to be positive. A careful study published by the National Research Council estimated that immigrants and their descendants would contribute about $80,000 more in taxes (in 1996 dollars) than they would receive in public services.

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Ten Economic Facts about Immigration

A heavily researched white papers on immigration. Some highlights:

3) On Average, Immigrants Improve The Living Standards Of Americans

Immigrants raise the overall standard of living of American workers by boosting wages and lowering prices.

4) Immigrants Are Not A Net Drain On The Federal Government Budget

Taxes paid by immigrants and their children, both legal and unauthorized, exceed the costs of the services they use. In fact, a 2007 cost estimate by the Congressional Budget Office found that a path to legalization for unauthorized immigrants would increase federal revenues by $48 billion but would only incur $23 billion of increased costs from public services, producing a surplus of $25 billion for government coffers. According to the Social Security Administration Trustees' report, increases in immigration have also improved Social Security's finances.

6) Immigrants Do Not Disproportionately Burden U.S. Correctional Facilities And Institutions

U.S.-born citizens are more than five times more likely than immigrants to be institutionalized.

7) Recent Immigrants Reflect America's Melting Pot (and Fully Integrate into Society)

Recent waves of immigrants and their children are integrating into the U.S. economy, just as previous immigrant families did.

More than 90 percent of the children of recent immigrants speak English, regardless of their country of origin.

9) Immigrants Start New Businesses And File Patents At Higher Rates Than U.S.-Born Citizens

Immigrants are 30 percent more likely to form new businesses than U.S.-born citizens.

Immigrants are three times more likely to file patents than U.S.-born citizens.

10) America Is Issuing A Declining Number Of Visas For High-Skill Workers

With its top-level universities, dynamic business environment, and wide-ranging economic opportunities, the United States has a history of attracting high-skill workers. However, a recent study suggests that this trend may be waning; many of today's international students either plan to leave the United States or are uncertain about remaining, raising the potential for a reverse brain-drain of the skilled workers who contribute to U.S. global competitiveness.

This one is just sad and dumb and a huge loss for us. Brain drain is a huge reason we have dominated in technology and innovation over the last century.

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What Immigration Means For U.S. Employment and Wages

Economists do not tend to find that immigrants cause any sizeable decrease in wages and employment of U.S.-born citizens, and instead may raise wages and lower prices in the aggregate. One reason for this effect is that immigrants and U.S.-born workers generally do not compete for the same jobs; instead, many immigrants complement the work of U.S. employees and increase their productivity. One reason for this effect is that immigrants and U.S.-born workers generally do not compete for the same jobs; instead, many immigrants complement the work of U.S. employees and increase their productivity. For example, low-skilled immigrant laborers allow U.S.-born farmers, contractors, and craftsmen to expand agricultural production or to build more homes^Wthereby expanding employment possibilities and incomes for U.S. workers. Another way in which immigrants help U.S. workers is that businesses adjust to new immigrants by opening stores, restaurants, or production facilities to take advantage of the added supply of workers; more workers translate into more business.

Economists have found that immigrants slightly raise the average wages of all U.S.-born workers.

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Unauthorized Immigrants Pay Taxes, Too

At least half of unauthorized immigrants pay income taxes.

The Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) has estimated the state and local taxes paid in 2010 by households that are headed by unauthorized immigrants. Collectively, these households paid $11.2 billion in state and local taxes.

In spite of the fact that they lack legal status, these immigrants - and their family members - are adding value to the U.S. economy; not only as taxpayers, but as workers, consumers, and entrepreneurs as well.

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Immigrants Are Makers, Not Takers

Immigrants will add a net of $611 billion to the Social Security system over the next 75 years. Immigrants are a key driver of keeping the Social Security Trust Fund solvent, and Stuart Anderson of the National Foundation for American Policy finds that cutting off immigration to the country would increase the size of the Social Security deficit by 31 percent over 50 years.

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[Sier]

There are alot of incorrect conclusions drawn from this data. The huge caveat to this data which simply cannot be overstated is: much of the illegal/legal immigration data is combined, not seperated. This is a problem. These are two extremely different concepts. This is apples and oranges. I would like to -seperate- some of the data for several of your points below with something more current.

1) On average, US natives benefit from immigration. Immigrants tend to complement (not substitute for) natives, raising natives' productivity and income.

Annual wage gains from immigration are between $30 billion and $80 billion.

Legal Immigration: I agree with the point as stated above.

Illegal Immigration: Source: https://www.fairus.org/issue/publica...ates-taxpayers
At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion. This is a disturbing and unsustainable trend. The sections below will break down and further explain these numbers at the federal, state, and local levels.

I'm not sure what -you- pay in taxes, nor will I ask. You could put most/all kids through college who wish to go for this amount. I'd just rather assume both my kids get a free college education, myself. You could, alternatively, put a HUGE dent in the national debt by applying this sum to our yearly debt.

2) Careful studies of the long-run fiscal effects of immigration conclude that it is likely to have a modest, positive influence.

Legal Immigration: I agree with the point as stated above.

Illegal Immigration: I completely disagree. There are numerous issues with an "Open Border Policy" of allowing illegal immigration without repercussion. Security, cost, disproportionate social-economic status, population influx we cannot easily absorb, etc etc etc.... I don't want to post a source for every argument, it would simply get spammy.

3) Skilled immigrants are likely to be especially beneficial to natives. In addition to contributions to innovation, they have a significant positive fiscal impact.

Legal Immigration: I agree with the point as stated above.

Illegal Immigration: Most (But not all) illegal immigrants do not pay taxes and are low income families (Those that pay taxes don't pay very much). I agree that they may provide a small benefit to local sales taxes.

4) Immigrants are a critical part of the U.S. workforce and contribute to productivity growth and technological advancement. They make up 15% of all workers and even larger shares of certain occupations such as construction, food services and health care. Approximately 40% of Ph.D. scientists working in the United States were born abroad. (Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics; American Community Survey)

Legal Immigration: I somewhat agree with your statement.

Illegal Immigration: Well duh. At this point they are so ingrained in our society that they kind of have to be. Roll by any given new neighborhood and do a quick headcount on construction workers. Ask to see the dish washing area of any small restaurant in your area. I do not see a proportionate amount of "Skilled" laborers from the illegal immigrant community, however. This is an inherent problem with data like this. You're mixing apples with oranges to try to make a point, and it's not really valid.

5) Entrepreneurial activity is nearly 40% higher for immigrants than for natives.

Legal Immigration: I agree with your statement.

Illegal Immigration: I don't have enough data to disprove your statement, but typically illegal immigrants who are "Off the grid" are hesitant to pursue this by simple logic.

6) Assimilate quickly: Although 72% of first-generation Latino immigrants use Spanish as their predominant language, only 7% of the second generation are Spanish-dominant.

Legal Immigration: I agree with your statement.

Illegal Immigration: I agree with your statement.

7) Immigrants have lower crime rates than natives. Among men aged 18 to 40, immigrants are much less likely to be incarcerated than natives.

Legal Immigration: I agree with your statement.

Illegal Immigration: I disagree with your statement for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the very first thing an illegal immigrant did when they crossed the border was commit a crime. They are at that point, going forward, a criminal. But sure, let's assume for a moment that we actually have an open border policy (We don't). It's difficult to get a "Correct" crime ratio in areas with more liberal populations and heavier illegal immigrant populations, as the crimes are not as readily reported, not as readily prosecuted, and altogether ignored.

8) Immigrants slightly improve the solvency of pay-as-you-go entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare. (Source: Social Security Administration)

Legal Immigration: I agree with your statement.

Illegal Immigration: I agree with your statement. It's hard to sign up for social security and medicare when you don't qualify for it.

9) The long-run impact of immigration on public budgets is likely to be positive. A careful study published by the National Research Council estimated that immigrants and their descendants would contribute about $80,000 more in taxes (in 1996 dollars) than they would receive in public services.

Legal Immigration: I agree with your statement.

Illegal Immigration: What taxes? The ones ~10% of the illegal population is paying? Additionally, as most illegal immigration families are low income, those who do pay taxes pay very little. I do agree that their descendants WILL probably pay their taxes, as at that point they are citizens, possibly/probably educated, and involved in higher paying jobs.



Congrats to the writer of this article. They took a 10+ year old report, married up two sets of data which should not be merged, and pushed an agenda. This article is typical liberal shovelfeed, just as there are far right articles showing the opposite, along with their own corresponding data. Here are a few:
https://www.fairus.org/issue/publica...ates-taxpayers
https://www.heritage.org/immigration...-real-solution
https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal...al-immigration


Stating it's ok for a disproportionate amount of low income families to be allowed to enter the country with impunity is asinine. Technically, you do "Grow the market", but that "expanded market" needs to have equal degrees of unskilled/skilled labor as it inflates. That simply will not happen unless you push for a merit based system of immigration.

As immigration (Primarily Mexican) is the focus on all illegal immigration attention in much of the article, I will post a point I already made in another forum: There are 194 countries. The USA ranks #5 on household income, last I checked. Mexico ranks #35. There are quite literally 159 countries worse off who deserve an EQUAL chance of attaining citizenship. There are 159 countries who do not get those same chances, BECAUSE individuals are incorrectly entering the country outside of the immigration process. Because of criminals who cut in line, people who actually needed to come here to escape a terrible situation (such as MY WIFE'S FAMILY ran into before they immigrated properly) had to wait longer. Not all countries have the luxury of sharing a border with our country for ease of access.

If you REALLY want to be charitable and fair, be charitable and fair to the right people. If you REALLY just want to push a Democratic voter base, well I suppose letting in a bunch of illegal immigrant Mexicans will do that. But don't pretend to whitewash it with data and "Good intentions".

[Kirzad]

The simple solution is to just annex Mexico.

Pros:
That would dramatically reduce the illegal immigrant population (they would all be citizens).
It would give us a crap-ton more beach side real estate.
Tijuana, you know what I'm saying.
We could tax all of those businesses that went to Mexico to get away from paying such a ridiculous burden - tremendous net increase in taxes.
Massive body of unskilled labor.
If we're still hellbent on building a wall to keep members of nations south of us out of the country, there's a lot fewer miles of fence needed.
If we then build that wall, the Mexicans would then have paid for it.

Cons:
Brown people would terk err jerbs!

Complaining that immigrants cost the US more money because of a net-increase on taxes is ridiculous. The government already stole that money from you. It costs the government more money, not you. If you're worried about the cost of government programs meaning higher taxes, the solution is to A) stop illegal immigration by making it really easy to immigrate legally, and to thus become a tax-paying citizen, or B) vote in people who stop increasing your tax burden and instead keep the country solvent by downsizing the sheer scope of government.

[Rosuav]

The simple solution is to just annex Mexico.

Awesome! Actually, let's go even further. To everyone who hates illegal immigration: CONGRATULATIONS! The United States of America just annexed the entire planet. Every single person on this earth is now a US citizen. You won! You won by conquest! You won like the ancient Romans did! And now, people can move freely within the newly-enlarged country. Isn't it amazing?

At some level, people are still going to hate on those they perceive as "foreign". If Mexico were to become a state (or group of states) of the US, the people who hate on illegal immigrants would hate on "all dem Truxicans coming in here and taking our jobs" or whatever word they want to use. Most of the hatred towards foreigners comes from people who are nervous about THEIR jobs being taken - which means they're not confident of their own ability to create worth. Here's a simple fact for you: if you are creating at least as much value as you're being paid, then you are worth keeping around. Do a good job of whatever you do, even if you're working a minimum-wage job, and stop worrying about someone else getting the job instead.

The US - and other countries - should be much freer with welcoming people. The economy will, in the long-term, benefit.

[Sier]

We did that on a small scale, somewhat. That's how we got California as part of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

Please, no more California's. One is enough. Actually, can we give it back?

[Aristotle]

Illegal Immigration: Source: https://www.fairus.org/issue/publica...ates-taxpayers
At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens

That has been massively and widely debunked as grossly biased and bad research.

FAIR's “Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration” Study Is Fatally Flawed

FAIR's biggest methodological error is that it does not consider the extra economic activity generated by illegal immigrants that would not occur otherwise.

But specifically:

1. FAIR assumes that there are 12.5 million illegal immigrants, over a million more than other organizations estimate
2. FAIR also doesn't count the taxes paid by these U.S. born citizens when they start working. Counting the benefits consumed but ignoring the tax revenue they pay (or will do so in the future) is one way FAIR gets such a negative result for this report. If FAIR counts the welfare consumed by the U.S. born children of illegal immigrants then it must also count the taxes that that cohort pays, but it does not.
3. FAIR blames the cost of immigration enforcement on illegal immigrants. In all seriousness, this is silly.
4. FAIR overcounts welfare benefits consumed by illegal immigrants by including benefits consumed by their U.S. citizen children.
5. On healthcare issues besides Medicaid benefits, FAIR estimates that illegal immigrants consume an amount of healthcare proportional to their share of the population. This is a vast overstatement in costs. Overall, all immigrants consume 55 percent less in healthcare dollars per capita than natives.
6. FAIR also undercounts the tax revenue generated by illegal immigrants. The first and most egregious undercount is that they ignore how increased housing demand raises the value of all real estate per county which also raises property tax revenue. Illegal immigrants increase nationwide housing values by about $1 trillion. Using the 1.15 percent average annual property tax rate, the increase in housing values created by illegal immigrants results in $12.2 billion in additional tax revenue.
7. FAIR also ignores the incidence of taxation when it comes to calculating their Social Security and Medicare contributions.
8. FAIR undercounts sales tax revenue. The average combined state and local sales tax rate was 6.44 percent in 2016 but adjusting for states where illegal immigrant live according to FAIR's estimate, it is 7.6 percent.

"Merely using the actual numbers in a correct way reduces FAIR's estimates fiscal cost of illegal immigrants from $116 billion to $3.3 to $15.6 billion – and that doesn't even touch their flawed static approach to counting how illegal immigrants impact the economy. "

"Many years ago, I wrote a criticism of an earlier version this report by FAIR. It's disheartening to see that this later version written by different authors is even more sloppy and makes more errors than the older version. The immigration debate deserves higher quality research than this recent FAIR report."

They did not even include taxes PAID by immigrants, which is absolutely asinine.

Even illegal immigrants provide net gains to wages, revenues, social security solvency, tax base, and generally every economic indicator while being a net gain to the tax rolls and being guilty of less crime than US citizens.

They are literally all upside.

The facts are the facts.

Hating on immigrants - legal or illegal - is based in either ignorance, racism, or both. The facts don't lie.

[Aristotle]

Illegal Immigration: I completely disagree. There are numerous issues with an "Open Border Policy" of allowing illegal immigration without repercussion.

Except there are not. The facts simply show there are not. That's the whole point of all this research I have cited. Immigrants, even illegal, are a net gain in every measurable way to the economy and are historically what made this country special and great.

We had an "open border policy" until the Johnson Act in 1921 (hmm, what happened to our economy soon after that?? oh yeah, Great Depression). The entire basis of this legislation was pure racism.

Immigration Quotas

The original version of the Johnson Act had been submitted to Congress with a report by the chief of the United States Consular Service, Wilbur Carr, which characterized would-be Jewish immigrants from Poland as "filthy, un-American, and often dangerous in their habits - lacking any conception of patriotism or national spirit."

In the late 1800s and early 1900s, many Americans came under the sway of anthropologists and eugenicists who contended that Anglo-Saxons were biologically superior to other peoples. This race-dominated view of human society played a key role in shaping Americans' attitudes toward immigration in the years following World War I. It gained prominence at the same time that Americans' anxiety about Communism was growing as a result of the establishment of the Soviet Union. The combination of racism, fear of Communism, and general resentment of foreigners provided the background of public support for immigration restriction.

The Johnson Act is, to this day, the foundation and core of our immigration policy.

Literally the same gruesomely despicable "philosophy" that was popular at this time in the West, that served as the core of Nazism in Germany, was behind the creation of the Johnson Act.

We are foundering under the influence of legislation that was based completely in racism and fear that has curtailed our prosperity while poisoning the well of American liberty and greatness.

Security, cost, disproportionate social-economic status, population influx we cannot easily absorb, etc etc etc....

Wrong on the facts.

We absorb them just fine and I have already provided actual long term research that we absorb them just fine.

Our country is mostly empty and since they are a net GAIN to the economy, we aren't just absorbing them, we are benefiting from them.

Illegal Immigration: Most (But not all) illegal immigrants do not pay taxes

Wrong on the facts, again. I already debunked this and provided citation in the first post.

Unauthorized Immigrants Pay Taxes, Too

Approximately half of illegal immigrants pay INCOME taxes (which is risky as heck on their part), and all of them pay sales taxes and other taxes.

and are low income families

No kidding. They just came here with nothing from some failing country - failing in whole or in part due to the United States' foreign policy and our idiotic "drug war" that created the billionaire drug cartels destroying Latin America (and running rampant in 2/3rds of the USA).

• They take jobs that need to be done but no American wants.
• They contribute massively as a net gain to our economy.
• They are 30 percent more likely to form new businesses than U.S.-born citizens.
• They are three times more likely to file a patent than U.S.-born citizens.
• They committ less crimes than U.S.-born citizens.

What's not to love?

The Immigrant Entrepreneurs Behind Major American Companies

"More than 40 percent of companies on the U.S. Fortune 500 list were launched by immigrants or children of immigrants."

A few choice examples from that article: Google, Pfizer, Kraft, Intel, Yahoo, ebay, AT&T, Tesla, Paypal, Yahoo, Kohl's, Capital One, Zumba.

Illegal Immigration: I disagree with your statement for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the very first thing an illegal immigrant did when they crossed the border was commit a crime.

Pure sophistry.

The people hiding Anne Frank were committing a crime.

If you're fleeing someone trying to kill you and break into someone's house, you are "committing a crime."

Funny thing though. Even if you count illegal immigrants incarcerated for immigration offenses, they STILL have a lower incarceration rate than US citizens.

Immigration Myths - Crime and the Number of Illegal Immigrants

Both illegal immigrants and legal immigrants have incarceration rates far below those of native-born Americans - at 0.85 percent, 0.47 percent, and 1.53 percent, respectively. Excluding illegal immigrants who are incarcerated or in detention for immigration offenses lowers their incarceration rate to 0.5 percent of their population - within a smidge of legal immigrants. As a result, native-born Americans are overrepresented in the incarcerated population while illegal and legal immigrants are underrepresented, relative to their respective shares of the population.

What now? :P

It's difficult to get a "Correct" crime ratio in areas with ...

No it isn't. Wrong on the facts, again. The crime data is fine. People have incredible expertise at gathering and studying this data.

That's a very intellectually dishonest attempt to disregard the simple fact that immigrants, even illegal immigrants, commit less crimes than citizens. That's just a fact. You really, simply, just have to acccept it.

Illegal Immigration: What taxes? The ones ~10% of the illegal population is paying?

Wrong on the facts, again. I already cited this. Approximately half of illegal immigrants pay INCOME taxes, and 100% of them pay sales taxes and other taxes.

Unauthorized Immigrants Pay Taxes, Too

Immigration's Economic Impact - White paper from the White House under George Bush - Council of Economic Advisors

9) The long-run impact of immigration on public budgets is likely to be positive. A careful study published by the National Research Council estimated that immigrants and their descendants would contribute about $80,000 more in taxes (in 1996 dollars) than they would receive in public services.

This article is typical liberal shovelfeed

The George W. Bush White House's Council of Economic Advisors white paper is now "liberal shovelfeed"? ROFL!!!!!!!!!

The CATO institute linked studies are liberal shovelfeed? CATO was originally founded by the Koch Brothers.

So George W. Bush and the Koch Brothers are now behind liberal shovelfeed?

That's a hilariously bad and embarrassing hot take.

Stating it's ok for a disproportionate amount of low income families to be allowed to enter the country with impunity is asinine.

Except it isn't asinine at all, and all the facts bear this out.

Furthermore, what do you suddenly have against low income people? I already addressed this the last time you grossly spat upon them as if they are lesser humans of no value.

The Statue of Liberty reads:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

It doesn't say "give me your millionaires and trust fund babies, yearning to go to nightclubbing with celebrities."

• They take jobs that need to be done but no American wants.
• They contribute massively as a net gain to our economy.
• They are 30 percent more likely to form new businesses than U.S.-born citizens.
• They are three times more likely to file a patent than U.S.-born citizens.
• They committ less crimes than U.S.-born citizens.
• More than 40 percent of companies on the U.S. Fortune 500 list were launched by immigrants or children of immigrants.

And guess what, absolute nightmare Trump is even cutting back on visas for the high tech, highly skilled workers we need:

Trump Administration Restricts H-1B Worker Visas Coveted By High Tech

I put more stock in hard data and scholarly research than your wrong-on-the-facts, completely unsubstantiated fears.

As immigration (Primarily Mexican) is the focus on all illegal immigration

Wrong again, on the facts, for like the 20th time:

What we know about illegal immigration from Mexico

"The number of Mexican immigrants living in the U.S. illegally has declined by more than 1 million since 2007.

Yes, that's right. Immigration is now flowing in the OTHER DIRECTION re: Mexico. And the rate is increasing.

More Mexicans Leaving Than Coming to U.S. - New Report

"About 900,000 Mexican immigrants returned to Mexico from the U.S. between 2009 and 2014"

You desperately need to do more than directly googling "immigrants are bad" and quoting FAIR, one of the most widely debunked and dishonest bad actors on the subject.

I feel like I've provided an absolute mountain of evidence on this topic that has very clearly proven the case. I've deliberately avoided pro-immigration activist sources and focused on neutral, scholarly research and objective data.

At this point, arguing further would be tantamount to debating with a flat earther or an anti-vaxxer. There's no point because the other side is literally wallowing in absolute falsehoods.

This topic frustrates me because there is quite literally no intellectual or fact based reason for people to be anti-immigration. It is all benefits for our country. The topic has simply been demagauged for votes and has its origin 100% in racism and fear.

It is doing nothing but hurting us for zero benefits.

[Sier]

Except there are not. The facts simply show there are not. That's the whole point of all this research I have cited. Immigrants, even illegal, are a net gain in every measurable way to the economy and are historically what made this country special and great.

Really? So an open border with North Korea would be acceptable?

Are we only talking about an open border with the Mexican government? Additionally, are we speaking of a "restricted" open border policy which allows for background checks, which really isn't an open border at all?

HISTORICALLY, we don't have a good record of a working open border policy after the advent of air travel. Long gone are the days of saving up a year's salary, and then hitching a boat across the Atlantic/Pacific.

Please elaborate on how you would deter espionage, terrorism, and the wide range of security issues which would no doubt follow an unrestricted open border policy. Not even the well informed "Liberal Politicians" in charge advocate this, as it is simply insanity. Only ill informed liberal well-wishers idealize this, which would ONLY work in a perfect world scenario.

We had an "open border policy" until the Johnson Act in 1921 (hmm, what happened to our economy soon after that?? oh yeah, Great Depression). The entire basis of this legislation was pure racism.

I would advise you to do further research on the causes of the Great Depression. Immigration is not among the top contenders, nor would it have even made a dent in the impact it had not only in our country, but countries across the planet at the time.

Wrong on the facts.

We absorb them just fine and I have already provided actual long term research that we absorb them just fine.

Our country is mostly empty and since they are a net GAIN to the economy, we aren't just absorbing them, we are benefiting from them.

A certain portion of our labor economy is unskilled, skilled, and extremely skilled.

If one is inflated, it directly impacts the needs of the other two.

A huge influx of unskilled labor increases the need for skilled labor. What does that mean?

Well, it means I technically don't have to worry about MY job. In fact, if our economy is blasted with unskilled labor, I'll see a sizable increase in salary. Good for me, right? Sure. I don't see many illegal immigrants qualifying for a security clearance for a defense contractor anytime in the near future, so show me the money!

But is it good for our unskilled market which has been saturated? Well...not so much. You have to grow all areas equally for things to stay as they are, or else you see a country devoted less and less toward information and technology, and more toward manufacturing and agriculture. That's pretty cool for countries who revolve around this type of economy. Ours does not.

Additionally, if we absorb them just fine, I would not have been pressed out of my own job back in 2005 when I was still considered "Unskilled". It was not "Just Fine" for my family at the time. Don't assume it's not a problem, it most certainly is.

I have kids, you have kids. If your kids somehow do not make it through college, I would think you would want them to have the highest chance of still succeeding as unskilled labor.

Wrong on the facts, again. I already debunked this and provided citation in the first post.

Unauthorized Immigrants Pay Taxes, Too

Approximately half of illegal immigrants pay INCOME taxes (which is risky as heck on their part), and all of them pay sales taxes and other taxes.

Neither my nor your surveys or data can account for any portion of illegal immigrants who are currently living off of the grid. By off the grid, I mean do not pay taxes, do not use credit, etc.... ALL illegal immigrants who I have dealt with career wise are paid under the table in cash. If you are working under the assumption they are "Doing the right thing" and declaring accurately their income taxes, and declaring to the government that they are living here, declaring their address, and declaring their citizenship status, you have been mislead.

No kidding. They just came here with nothing from some failing country - failing in whole or in part due to the United States' foreign policy and our idiotic "drug war" that created the billionaire drug cartels destroying Latin America (and running rampant in 2/3rds of the USA).
They take jobs that need to be done but no American wants.
They contribute massively as a net gain to our economy.
They are 30 percent more likely to form new businesses than U.S.-born citizens.
They are three times more likely to file a patent than U.S.-born citizens.
They committ less crimes than U.S.-born citizens.

When they immigrate from the failing country, what is that doing to assist the failing country they left behind? Should we not be attempting to assist the failing country? I prefer the "Teach a man to fish" approach.

Americans want those jobs. There are genuinely Citizens who want to do construction, work in fast food, etc etc.... This is a typical liberal argument which is outright -wrong-. We want those jobs, but WE DON'T HAVE those jobs because we don't have a choice in the matter. I know people who want to get in on construction. Are they going to? Nope.

Additionally, they already committed a crime when they immigrated here illegally. The fact that the criminal justice system in the more liberal areas where they live only proceeds with a slap on the wrist for everything short of terrorism does not mean they are less prone to crime, it means we are less prone to enforcing the consequences.

Misunderstood data. Please consider this my response to all arguments stating "Illegal immigrants don't do as much crime".

No it isn't. Wrong on the facts, again. The crime data is fine. People have incredible expertise at gathering and studying this data.

That's a very intellectually dishonest attempt to disregard the simple fact that immigrants, even illegal immigrants, commit less crimes than citizens. That's just a fact. You really, simply, just have to accept it.

It's difficult to gather data that isn't accumulated, and is ignored. People do have incredible expertise as manipulating the existing data if they are attempting to prove a point.

The George W. Bush White House's Council of Economic Advisors white paper is now "liberal shovelfeed"? ROFL!!!!!!!!!

The CATO institute linked studies are liberal shovelfeed? CATO was originally founded by the Koch Brothers.

So George W. Bush and the Koch Brothers are now behind liberal shovelfeed?

That's a hilariously bad and embarrassing hot take.

The Data cited is fine, granted it's extremely old. What the article did to bastardize the data is different.

Did you know football fans have a zero crime rate? My Data was compiled on the day of the Superbowl. This is a ridiculous example, sure, but you have to view statistics with a wide angle lens.

"The number of Mexican immigrants living in the U.S. illegally has declined by more than 1 million since 2007.

Yes, that's right. Immigration is now flowing in the OTHER DIRECTION re: Mexico. And the rate is increasing.

I suppose if cancer rates drop 10%, we can stop funding for that by that logic. It's still a problem, and again - the data is often misrepresented, such as in this forum.

This topic frustrates me because there is quite literally no intellectual or fact based reason for people to be anti-immigration. It is all benefits for our country. The topic has simply been demagauged for votes and has its origin 100% in racism and fear.

Cool, the racism card. I presented several intellectual points. You're allowed to hate the sin and love the sinner. I genuinely LOVE Mexicans who are here legally, just as I LOVE my immigrant wife who is here legally. Don't feed me the racism card. It's ignorant, and insulting.

I wish my wife could have immigrated to the country sooner. She probably could have if our population were not being manipulated through illegal methods. Again, there are well over a hundred countries worse off than Mexico, and who are suffering HORRIBLY. They don't get the same treatment our illegal immigrants do as they do not share a border, they share an ocean. You think the typical $10,000 a year the typical Mexican family gets is bad? Try living on $500 a year.... We are not discussing these countries...why? I'm not the racist here. Individuals who prioritize Mexicans are. You should prioritize countries in an equal manner.

Hating on immigrants - legal or illegal - is based in either ignorance, racism, or both. The facts don't lie.

Facts don't lie, but you can marry facts together to paint one.

You also cannot argue a fact in which you do not have good data on, at least not in a reliable manner. You do not have good data on illegal immigrants living off the grid, in spite of what the liberal media tells you. You have estimates, or partial data, which can be twisted every which way. Admittedly, conservatives also do this. If you want to use some Spock-like logic, use some Spock-like logic, and never assume one party is going to feed you data which goes against their own agenda.


Finally:

The Statue of Liberty reads:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

This is a poem called "The New Colossus". It was written in 1883.

A couple of other things were going on this year. Native Americans were being pushed out of their own lands to make room for expansion. Sharecropping was still a thing, which was essentially "Slavery-Lite". New Immigrants during this period were used as "Voting Fodder" in major cities (Sound familiar?), and worked for next to nothing.

Yes, we took in Tired, Poor, Huddled Masses, and we in turn displayed and created Tired, Poor, and Huddled Masses. This is a poem which while sounds pretty, was also 100% hypocritical at the time, and has never once come without great cost to the indigenous people.

Let's be frank - People need help. People deserve help. We have X amount of resources to help those people. Giving advantage to primarily one country who is milking illegal immigration without offering the correct form of help to countries which NEED IT MORE is the worst kind of racism, it's the racism you don't even know is happening.

[Aristotle]

Sier, yet again you provide no data, no citations, no credible evidence, and no cogent argument to counter ANY of my points or the mountain of evidence I provided.

Your anti-immigration stances continue to be based purely in racism, fear, and ignorance. You have not countered even *ONE* of my points. Not one.

Your attempts to discredit the data amount to nothing but insecure, desperate gaslighting. The people studying this know how to gather their data. They have spent decades doing it, know how to do so accurately, and have accounted for every one of your trivial concerns. Even dishonest groups like FAIR don't question the data - they just cherry pick from it fraudulently.

Instead, you fall back on completely non-sensical stuff like this:

Let's be frank - People need help. People deserve help. We have X amount of resources to help those people. Giving advantage to primarily one country who is milking illegal immigration without offering the correct form of help to countries which NEED IT MORE is the worst kind of racism, it's the racism you don't even know is happening.

There you go again with your grossly uninformed and completely random obsession over Mexico. You literally aren't paying attention or reading. AGAIN: "More Mexicans Leaving Than Coming to U.S."

Furthermore, our immigration laws limit the amount of legal immigrants BY COUNTRY. It is not one pool that any single country can "use up." So your weird imagined scenario of Mexicans "milking" all the slots so other countries don't get any is just completely false.

Therefore: your entire point is utterly moot and based in PURE IGNORANCE of our Immigration Laws.

More importantly:

When it comes to letting people come to the US, there is no such thing as "X amount of resources to help" these people, because they are a NET GAIN. That's the whole point here.

Give them *ALL* a path to citizenship and a set of basic rules for how to legally come here with no artificial, racist numerical limits. Return to pre-1921 policies, before the Johnson Act which as explained before was motivated by pure, unadulterated racism, eugenics, and white-supremacy.

That doesn't mean no more border, rules, visas, background checks, or vigilance. Even before 1921 about 2% of people were turned away for various reasons. Of course we continue to look out for drug and arms runners, spies, health/disease risks, etc.

Immigrants (both legal and illegal combined):

1. Take jobs that need to be done but no American wants.
2. Contribute massively as a net gain to our economy.
3. Pay taxes and contribute at a net gain above any and all services consumed.
4. Are 30 percent more likely to form new businesses than U.S.-born citizens.
5. Are three times more likely to file a patent than U.S.-born citizens.
6. Commit less crimes than U.S.-born citizens.
7. More than 40 percent of companies on the U.S. Fortune 500 list were launched by immigrants or children of immigrants. (For example: Google, Pfizer, Kraft, Intel, Yahoo, ebay, AT&T, Tesla, Paypal, Yahoo, Kohl's, Capital One, Zumba.)

That is why this issue is so preposterous. We are literally penalizing ourselves for no upside. We are denying ourselves the enormous benefits of these immigrants who could be providing huge benefits to our economy, our technological advancement, and our nation. The *ONLY* explanation for our immigration laws is a combination of racism, ignorance, and politicians playing on fear for votes. That's it.

Even if you didn't care one bit about the immigrants themselves, didn't want to help them, and didn't care about their suffering, as an American citizen it would still be utter folly to not reap the benefits these immigrants bring.

It is *proven* that there are no economic or security reasons to justify our immigration policy. It is utterly stupid and does nothing but hurt us for no benefit.

We are literally flushing wealth and technological innovation down the toilet for no gain.

[Rosuav]

Really? So an open border with North Korea would be acceptable?[/B]

As in, any citizen of North Korea should be allowed to enter the US legally, and live and work there? Sure, why not? Let's see. You get someone who is voluntarily choosing to live under the US government. That suggests that you're doing something right (well, that you're doing something better than Nth K is doing, which isn't a high bar to clear, but still). This person is willing to work - or if not, you wouldn't be panicking about immigrants stealing your jobs. So there's going to be value created on US soil. So far, I'm not seeing a problem here.

If you can prove (not assert, prove) that the welfare/healthcare payments exceed the economic benefits, then you might have an argument for welfare/healthcare reform. Not for "people from North Korea shouldn't be allowed into my pristine country". But I'm not even seeing that.

And yes, I'm aware that I'm debating on behalf of a country I'm not a part of. But I believe the exact same thing about Australia. I've no idea how much immigration is legal and how much is illegal, but I firmly believe that we should let _anyone_ come and stay, and work. And yes, most first-gen immigrants would put the average Australian to shame with their work ethics. My Mum reckons that most fast-food sole traders are immigrants because very few school graduates are willing to put in the insane number of hours that it takes to make a food place successful. Are they "stealing our jobs"? Nope. They're creating their own jobs, and selling us hot food - frequently food of their own culture, so we get to sample the tastes of the world.

I'm still not seeing a problem here.