Immigration is Overwhelmingly Good for the United States

[Sier]

If I were in charge of the immigration system with my current knowledge (which is not NEARLY enough), I'd have a very clear path to immigration which is what we're sorely lacking right now. One of the main reasons we're lacking in this, though, is purely economical. There is a TON of money in the immigration system. People are paying lawyers and "immigration service agencies" $10-20K for the chance of being an American citizen, and often, they fail to attain it through legal means after having shelled out that money. In addition, the fact is that politicians get HUGE bang for their buck as their fuel their campaign on some American's racism and fear of illegals. Why do you think that despite multiple Republican presidents and Republican Congresses that this issue has never been "resolved"?

My system:

1) Pay $50,000 for a Green Card. This is available for anyone who can afford it. If you stay as a good and upstanding citizen for the next 5 years, you can apply for citizenship and go through the process of becoming an American citizen. If you're willing to work in an under-served area, you can reduce this to 2-3 years. (I'm flexible on years.)
2) Apply to work in America in an under-served area that needs your expertise. If you do this for 3 years, you get issued a Green Card for permanent residency. Stay in the area for another 2 years and apply for citizenship.
3) Political asylum. (Has a whole different set of rules. I don't know enough about it the nuances for each country to be able to set up this system.) This needs to be able to be accomplished when you're outside of the US.
4) 1 million slots (or whatever number that experts come up with) for a Green Card distributed by lottery. Work here for 5 years. Apply for citizenship.
5) Illegals. Let's face it. We love illegals in the US. They're employed heavily and many do pay taxes despite not having a SSN. The government knows about them and does nothing because, unlike the average regular dummy, they know that illegals are incredibly important to our economy. It takes an incredibly unintelligent person to disrupt this system. Still, it would be incredibly beneficial if we have a merit system in place for illegals to be able to gain citizenship at least for their children. The Gang of Eight attempted to deal with this.

Sounds good, except for point 5. I'm not sure if you and Aristotle are differing in opinion on this, it kind of sounded like he is going for an open border policy, and you are for a "Let's redo the system and make things simpler" way of thinking, which is also my way of thinking. Except you're not calling me a racist o.0.

[Dalaena]

Sounds good, except for point 5. I'm not sure if you and Aristotle are differing in opinion on this, it kind of sounded like he is going for an open border policy, and you are for a "Let's redo the system and make things simpler" way of thinking, which is also my way of thinking. Except you're not calling me a racist o.0.

I'm completely for an open door policy. That's the point of my posts. An open door policy doesn't mean that there's no system in place. It just means you don't turn people away if they can make it through the process and that there's an actual system in place that they can follow. It sounds like you think that an open door policy means that every random person who moseys along over the border gets in. That's not what open door policy means when discussing immigration.

I do strongly believe that most anti-immigration and anti-immigrant proponents and current laws are strongly based in racist values. I also know that racism is mostly about the dominant race's feelings and they'll often defend a racist system just because they want to feel like they're not racists. And they aren't necessarily, but that doesn't mean that the system itself isn't based on racism.

[Aristotle]

Sier, if you literally aren't going to slow down and read, then why are you cluttering the thread? The thread would be better off just as a collection of information and links for people who actually WANT to learn facts.

You keep repeating absolutely false or off-topic things that indicate you literally haven't read most of the factual information I've posted.

I've repeatedly explained that a return to pre-1921 is not a wide open border. It still has rules, checks, verifications, etc. I even mentioned that pre-1921 ~2% of people were turned away.

But you just keep ignoring that over and over. That's incredibly intellectually dishonest and disrespectful.

But I am annoyed you keep throwing down the "You're Racist" card.

Then stop being racist and ignorant.

Once you are made aware that our current immigration law was based primarily on racism, continuing to support it is automatically racist.

It is literally that simple.

I don't want to see uncontrolled migration anymore than I want to see Wal-Mart/Best Buy open up their doors (Without a line and security) on Black Friday.

Painfully ignorant. Absolutely, painfully ignorant. You don't seem to understand that our *NATION* is not comparably bottlenecked in throughput or capacity as a Wal-Mart. You don't seem to grasp the scale of this. Your analogies are ignorant in the extreme.

To make your analogy work, that Wal-Mart would have to be so big that everyone who wanted could easily fit through the doors and as more people entered, the amount of products in the store actually increased and their prices went down.

Sounds like magic, right? THAT'S THE POWER OF IMMIGRATION IN AMERICA!

Are you grasping this at all? Is this starting to sink in at all? Are you beginning to understand that we all win from immigration? This is one of the rare political topics where there don't have to be ANY losers.

We should all be unified in WANTING to gobble up as many of these amazing people as possible.

• Think about the kind of person who is so ambitious, dedicated, and driven to have a better life that they ABANDON EVERYTHING and find any way they can to get here.
• That's why 40% of the Fortune 500 companies are founded by immigrants and their children.
• That's why immigrants are 30% more likely to start a business.
• That's why immigrants file TRIPLE the number of patents.

Because these people are AMAZING. We are getting away with highway robbery stealing them from other countries. They are a gift.

Can you imagine right now if RUSSIA had the power and control of Google at their fingertips? They would if Sergey Brin hadn't immigrated to the USA.

It's not about the race. It's about the money, the numbers, and the fairness.

Yes, it is exactly about race. The entire origin of our immigration law is primarily about race. Re-read the history I already posted and explained.

The money, the numbers, and the fairness are all 100% on my side of this discussion.

Your fairness claim is pure ignorant nonsense. Absolutely nothing you support is "fair" by any stretch of the imagination. I have no idea why you keep barfing that foolishness out.

I believe everyone deserves a fair chance, you do not, as you do not wish to offer any controlling factor into immigration.

How can you say something this absolutely false *AND* dishonest. That is an absolute lie.

*I* am the one proposing giving everyone a fair chance. *I* am the one proposing a return to a system that lets everyone come here who is willing to follow the rules and procedures, and doesn't violate security/health restrictions.

*YOU* are supporting a system that has unfair numerical caps, turns away the vast majority of people with no consideration at all, and was LITERALLY founded on purely racist, ignorant, and fear based reasons.

The pre-1921 system was the one that was fair, and it HAD RULES. I've said this repeatedly. Everything since then is what is unfair. Hard-caps based on keeping certain races out is unfair.

My god, how can you not grasp this?

I believe in data that is accurate in which you can quantify

Data doesn't care if you believe in it, because it is true regardless.

Saying the closest countries who have the "Capacity" to migrate here freely deserve special favor is far more of a racist argument.

No matter how many times you repeat this, it is still NONSENSE. This is you and your Mexico addiction again. This is your weird obsession with Mexico's geographic closeness.

Guess what: when you compare any two countries, one of them is going to be closer than the other. So what? Irrelevant. We have no control over that. Once they get here, it doesn't matter any more, and that's when the real struggle begins.

Mexico doesn't get any "special favor" now or in the pre-1921 system. Furthermore, more Mexicans are LEAVING the US than are coming here, so your point is both WRONG *and* MOOT.

I have explained this to you repeatedly, but you just aren't reading. You are covering your ears and shouting "YOUR FACTS WON'T CHANGE MY RACISM! BLAH BLAH BLAH!" It's sad.

In conclusion:

1. The facts are all on my side.
   
   
2. Logic is on my side.
   
   
3. Humanity and compassion are on my side.

The only things you have on your side are racism, ignorance, and fear.

Enjoy having that on your conscience.

[Dalaena]

Sounds good, except for point 5. I'm not sure if you and Aristotle are differing in opinion on this, it kind of sounded like he is going for an open border policy, and you are for a "Let's redo the system and make things simpler" way of thinking, which is also my way of thinking. Except you're not calling me a racist o.0.

I should probably add that our opinions are extremely similar because he formed many of them over the years of being married to me, and I formed many of mine due to his extensive and careful research on this topic. He was there for my naturalization ceremony where I foreswore my birth country in the defense of the United States, and he has been a part of my immigrant community for a very long time now. He's also raised two daughters who deal with these issues on a rather frequent basis. He also saw my amazing cousin get denied citizenship despite years of teaching in a New York school and contributing positively to her community for years.

He's heard my story of how Mitch McConnell handed me a $100 saving bonds as I was selected from my middle school to give a 4th of July speech on what it is to be an American. At the time, I wasn't officially an American. I didn't get naturalized until I was 22. It didn't make a difference. Our opinions may vary a tiny bit, but on an issue like this, I'm not sure you could have very differing opinions and still have a successful marriage. This is a fundamental and core issue for our family.

[Sier]

Yea...I just keep seeing "My data is right, because intelligent people wrote it. You're a stupid racist".

That's exactly the kind of aggressive, bullheaded rhetoric that gets Trump elected for another 4 years. Conservatives get all threatened, and vote for crazy. You should probably look into that.

I made my points, I disagree with yours. You think I'm a racist, oddly. I guess the other countries I'm trying to defend opportunities for (Including Caucasians) qualifies for racism to some people?

It's all good. We've both expressed ourselves to exhaustion. But seriously, calling people racist willy-nilly just for not sharing your opinions is...intolerant? Well, very, know what, never mind. It's behavior I expect of you at this point. Not sure what else I expected out of this debate.

[Aristotle]

Yea...I just keep seeing "My data is right, because intelligent people wrote it. You're a stupid racist".

And I just keep seeing from you:

1. I openly and expressly ignore all facts, data, and statistics because they clearly and plainly discredit the beliefs I ignorantly want to hold onto.
   
   
2. I am racist because I support a system of Immigration laws that were written for primarily racist reasons.
   
   
3. I especially hate Mexicans. Man, really, screw those gross people. How dare their country be close to ours!
   
   
4. Through no talent, effort, skill, ambition, hard work, cleverness, ingenuity, or accomplishment of my own, I was luckily born here. Therefore I am entitled to the greatness of America and everyone else has to pound sand. Hahaha, too bad! You don't deserve life, liberty, and happiness. Forget about all the founding principles of America. I WANT IT ALL FOR ME ME ME ME ME!
   
   
5. My ignorance is so vast and boundless, I am actually shooting myself in the foot by opposing pre-1921 immigration rules. I am actually against the increased economic prosperity and innovation immigrants have ALWAYS brought to the United States. Google? Intel? Kraft? Pfizer? 40% of the Fortune 500? Who needs 'em. Let those people stay in their birth countries and found those billion dollar, world transforming companies that employ millions elsewhere.

That's exactly the kind of aggressive, bullheaded rhetoric that gets Trump elected for another 4 years.

If aggressive, bullheaded rhetoric gets THE OTHER GUY elected, then Trump would never have won anything. Trump, his twitter, and his cult are the most aggressive and bullheaded of all.

This is the fallacy of Trump and Trumptards. "Better be civil, or we will win again!"

Wrong.

That has NOTHING to do with why Trump won. He won the primary because ~16 other more qualified people split the sane vote. He won the national because Hillary was the worst candidate in history and the DNC alienated huge swaths of their own base by rigging their primary process.

I made my points, I disagree with yours.

You spouted some unfounded, unsupported, ignorant, factually wrong, racist beliefs.

Then you stuck your head in the sand and refused to listen to any of the actual facts, data, and statistics.

That's called willful ignorance.

I guess the other countries I'm trying to defend opportunities for (Including Caucasians) qualifies for racism to some people?

You aren't defending opportunities for anyone if you defend the current system of artificial hard caps on immigration.

And your gross hatred of Mexicans and hispanics is obvious and quite monstrous.

calling people racist willy-nilly just for not sharing your opinions

It is your racism that earns you the label of racist, not the fact that your opinions differ. The current system is literally based on racism. Once you know this, continuing to support a racist system makes you a racist. That's obvious.

It is your sadly proud pronouncement that you refuse to listen to facts that makes you ignorant.

The most tragic thing of all is your racist ignorance is actually not even in your own best interests. You'd benefit as well - along with the rest of our nation - from the increased prosperity and innovation immigration yields.

What a shame.

[Sier]

And I just keep seeing from you:

1. I openly and expressly ignore all facts, data, and statistics because they clearly and plainly discredit the beliefs I ignorantly want to hold onto.
   
   
2. I am racist because I support a system of Immigration laws that were written for primarily racist reasons.
   
   
3. I especially hate Mexicans. Man, really, screw those gross people. How dare their country be close to ours!
   
   
4. Through no talent, effort, skill, ambition, hard work, cleverness, ingenuity, or accomplishment of my own, I was luckily born here. Therefore I am entitled to the greatness of America and everyone else has to pound sand. Hahaha, too bad! You don't deserve life, liberty, and happiness. Forget about all the founding principles of America. I WANT IT ALL FOR ME ME ME ME ME!
   
   
5. My ignorance is so vast and boundless, I am actually shooting myself in the foot by opposing pre-1921 immigration rules. I am actually against the increased economic prosperity and innovation immigrants have ALWAYS brought to the United States. Google? Intel? Kraft? Pfizer? 40% of the Fortune 500? Who needs 'em. Let those people stay in their birth countries and found those billion dollar, world transforming companies that employ millions elsewhere.

Of course that's what you see. You're liberal, and I'm a southern Republican. You probably assume I have sharecroppers working my back yard. Racism is the discrimination against one certain group of people. I prefer even opportunities for all people. Your wild use of the racism card is flabbergasting, and confusing other people.

And I just keep seeing from you:[LIST=1]

If aggressive, bullheaded rhetoric gets THE OTHER GUY elected, then Trump would never have won anything. Trump, his twitter, and his cult are the most aggressive and bullheaded of all.

I really don't get your distaste for Trump other than your desire to largely satisfy a predominantly liberal playerbase, which I do get by the way.

You and Trump have alot in common. Your methodology and temperament in running Threshold is extremely on par.

This is the fallacy of Trump and Trumptards. "Better be civil, or we will win again!"

I guess we'll see what happens in a couple of years. Your casual insulting of a large portion of the country definitely doesn't help, as he holds a 40% approval as of 7/14.

Healthy debate can change opinions. Unhealthy debate and name calling will generally solidify them. (Like Racism, and Trumptard).

And your gross hatred of Mexicans and hispanics is obvious and quite monstrous.

And you're acting like I'm sitting on my porch with a shotgun in typical southern fashion waiting for a Mexican to walk across my lawn. Again - You're fixating on the group of people far more than I am. Chill.

Between Panama and Mexico, I've had roughly ~75 working under me at one point in time. ~20 of those worked directly under me -in this country-. If I fixate on them, it's because I have the most direct experience with illegal immigration involving their geographic origination.

THANKFULLY, I do not participate in the system anymore of rewarding them by paying them under the table. I'm fully aware of where they lived, how they paid for goods, their credit status (Or lack thereof), and where they were sending much of their money (It wasn't declared Taxes).

And while I COULD relay my experiences further and oust both former employers, I will not. I treated my employees well from a supervisory role, paid them as promised, and eventually -lost my job- to one.

So yes, I do fixate on Mexicans, TO A DEGREE. If I had experience with illegal Canadian immigrants being hired, being paid under the table, and not paying taxes, sure. I'd start to fixate on them.

You aren't defending opportunities for anyone if you defend the current system of artificial hard caps on immigration.

Caps are in place because existing infrastructure and employment cannot accommodate a mass surge in people as if we were to suddenly open all borders. If population were to -double- overnight for sake of arguement, you would deal with the following:
Traffic cannot easily accommodate them until they are doubled. Unless you're cool with a 3 hour commute.
Hospitals cannot easily accommodate them until they are doubled. Unless you're cool bleeding out on the ER floor.
School systems cannot easily accommodate them until they are doubled. Unless you're cool with 60 people to a classroom.
Food supplies cannot easily accommodate them until they are doubled. Unless you're cool on 1000 calories a day routines.
Every other service you are ignoring and taking for granted accommodate them until they are doubled.

Infrastructure must be built, and that takes time. I agree that MORE immigrants being allowed in would be wise, I do NOT agree with you that allowing open borders to everyone would be wise, and I argue that it gives an unfair advantage against countries who cannot simply walk through the desert a ways.

And your gross hatred of Mexicans and Hispanics is obvious and quite monstrous.



It is your racism that earns you the label of racist, not the fact that your opinions differ. The current system is literally based on racism. Once you know this, continuing to support a racist system makes you a racist. That's obvious.

It is your sadly proud pronouncement that you refuse to listen to facts that makes you ignorant.

And you just went full 4chan on me. I'm not sure how to keep responding to the racism and stupidity insults. We can take an IQ test and compare results if you wish, I'm fairly comfortable with where I'd end up. Please, by all means hold me to that.

I'm not quite sure how to respond in 4chan like-manner. Uh..."urmomsgay"?

The most tragic thing of all is your racist ignorance is actually not even in your own best interests. You'd benefit as well - along with the rest of our nation - from the increased prosperity and innovation immigration yields.

What a shame.

Urmomsgay.

[Rosuav]

Caps are in place because existing infrastructure and employment cannot accommodate a mass surge in people as if we were to suddenly open all borders. If population were to -double- overnight for sake of arguement, you would deal with the following:
Traffic cannot easily accommodate them until they are doubled. Unless you're cool with a 3 hour commute.
Hospitals cannot easily accommodate them until they are doubled. Unless you're cool bleeding out on the ER floor.
School systems cannot easily accommodate them until they are doubled. Unless you're cool with 60 people to a classroom.
Food supplies cannot easily accommodate them until they are doubled. Unless you're cool on 1000 calories a day routines.
Every other service you are ignoring and taking for granted accommodate them until they are doubled.

Infrastructure must be built, and that takes time. I agree that MORE immigrants being allowed in would be wise, I do NOT agree with you that allowing open borders to everyone would be wise, and I argue that it gives an unfair advantage against countries who cannot simply walk through the desert a ways.

Let's suppose there were no government-created caps whatsoever - that literally ANY person could just waltz into the US and try to get a job and a place to live. (Assume for now that everybody does need both job and residence - we're not talking about super-wealthy idle rich people here, nor people who are happy to raise families living on the streets.) The population will not instantly double; it depends on exactly who is coming in and out. Let's be really REALLY generous and estimate that you could double the population in, say, eighteen months - that is, have the population follow Moore's Law. During the first month, you gain a number of people, and those people look for jobs and residences. Another month later, and those people have started being productive, creating value; meanwhile, the demand for housing encourages more places to be made available - constructed, if necessary. Another month, more people, more progressive demand. The housing industry will flourish... which means more construction jobs. Everyone needs to buy food, so there's more jobs producing and selling food. All these people are thinking of all new ideas, new business plans, new creative endeavours.

Over time, infrastructure changes would be needed; but if the country is slow to adapt, people will move further out. You don't HAVE to live and work in a dense city, and if you move out a bit into a smaller town, you'll make that town grow. Meanwhile you're paying local taxes, supporting local businesses, and giving that town more resources.

You're assuming that infrastructure wouldn't change in the slightest, but that's utterly bogus.

[Rosuav]

4. We do have limited room and resources. Sorry, that's the truth. It's why certain countries which overpopulated before developing sufficient infrastructure had to resort to a "1 family - 1 Child" policy (See China). We also have a historic track record of pushing out indigenous people to make additional room, and that is back when we had far more room to provide.

Limited room? Well... sure. Contiguous US is eight million square kilometers. If the ENTIRE WORLD POPULATION lived in the 48 contiguous states, you would have less than a thousand people per square kilometer, or a 30x30m square per person. Of course, that ignores the lumpiness of people's actual lives, so let's just skew the densities ten-to-one, but that's still 10x10m per person in the most dense places.

Limited resources? You're obviously talking about some sort of resource that humans are unable to create. What does the US have only a finite supply of, that you are worried about here? Be specific. It has to be something that isn't simply farmed, as an increase in population would naturally result in more production. It can't be something that you import, as an increase in population results in an increase in work done, wealth created, and thus funds available to purchase things. So we're left with... uhh... petroleum, which people are already panicking about even without any sort of population growth. Anything else?

[Kirzad]

Limited resources? You're obviously talking about some sort of resource that humans are unable to create. What does the US have only a finite supply of, that you are worried about here? Be specific. It has to be something that isn't simply farmed, as an increase in population would naturally result in more production. It can't be something that you import, as an increase in population results in an increase in work done, wealth created, and thus funds available to purchase things. So we're left with... uhh... petroleum, which people are already panicking about even without any sort of population growth. Anything else?

Gated communities would become a scarcity and, well, can't have that.