Again. Police murder two more innocent black men. How do we stop this?

[Aristotle]

Two more examples this week:

=> Police Stop Ends In Black Man's Death; Aftermath Is Live-Streamed On Facebook

=> Video Of Baton Rouge Man's Fatal Shooting By Police Sparks Protests, FBI Inquiry

Passionate, excellent reaction from black, female police officer Nakia Jones.

I am horrified and deeply sad today. Dalaena and I have been talking about this a lot and we're both really shaken by this stuff happening yet again. I am sure it happens countless other times without video and media attention.

I don't know the solution. I can only postulate. My thoughts:

1) Police must be disarmed. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. With that tool of death constantly on their hip, it will always feel like a solution when it rarely is. The gun should be in a locker in their car, and every single removal should trigger an inquiry. Many police forces around the world operate just fine without a gun constantly on hand.

In any situation where there is not an innocent life in immediate danger, there's absolutely no need to escalate the situation. Similarly, this also means no high speed chases unless there's a hostage situation or an innocent life at risk. Gather evidence. Followup later. No arrest or fine is worth putting innocent lives at risk. There is always another day to arrest/fine someone if needed.

2) Police need to have it drilled into their heads that they aren't gods whose every word and command is something citizens must obey. They don't have the right to order people around just because they feel like it, and people have and should have every right to object non-violently, argue with them, etc. Police are servants of the people, not overlords. Their training is completely backwards and until it is fundamentally changed the wrong type of people will keep seeking the job and they will receive the wrong type of training.

3) We need to stop using police as tax collectors - sending them out to levy municipal fines to make money. Fundamentally we must lower our belief that there is an inherent good to arresting or fining people. This just adds to people's distrust of police, deters quality people from wanting to be police (no decent person would ENJOY that part of the job), and encourages power mad sociopaths who get off on the power to seek the job (see #1).

4) We have to own up to the fact that certain racial, religious, and cultural groups suffer far more severely from our law enforcement epidemic than others. Just accept it. Acknowledge it. We all suffer from this plague, but some suffer far worse and are in far greater, immediate danger.

[Red Syns]

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5...-aaron-bandler

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...lled-cops-2016

I suppose we're just going to conveniently ignore the facts, and tout these incidents (which have not been finalized in their investigations) as a problem?

I suppose we're just going to conveniently ignore that previous "incidents," such as the charges against the officers involved with Freddie Grey, have resulted in IA, judges, and juries all finding the police not guilty?

I suppose we're going to continue to spew this nonsense forth until police finally stop deciding they want to be police (I know I opted to not become an officer, prior to going Navy), and criminals have the rule of the land?

This narrative is old, and trite, and stupid.

[Kailen]

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5...-aaron-bandler

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...lled-cops-2016

I suppose we're just going to conveniently ignore the facts, and tout these incidents (which have not been finalized in their investigations) as a problem?

I suppose we're just going to conveniently ignore that previous "incidents," such as the charges against the officers involved with Freddie Grey, have resulted in IA, judges, and juries all finding the police not guilty?

I suppose we're going to continue to spew this nonsense forth until police finally stop deciding they want to be police (I know I opted to not become an officer, prior to going Navy), and criminals have the rule of the land?

This narrative is old, and trite, and stupid.

Dude, as usual, you're always dealing in extremes, hyperboles, and distorting facts. All the while stinking up the thread with a red herring that takes away from the original idea of the thread.

I interpreted the previous post as a call for better police training to better serve their community. I also deduced that people like yourself, and other members of the majority have to accept that minorities have different interactions with law enforcement.

Furthermore, I'd like to comment on the attitudes and overall dismissive perspective by those with similar ideology as yourself. It's dangerous. It's divisive. It contributes to the dysfunction within our country.

Also here's another gem for you. We don't have to deal with absolute extremes. Life is not a zero-sum game. Humans are complex, and can be empathetic to Black and Blue lives at the same time.

It's our shared humanity that allows us to do this, but unfortunately, you have to be seen as human in order to be caressed with such empathy.

[Gromgor]

You're about to read something that doesn't happen very often - I absolutely, 100% agree with Kailen.

I also agree 100% with Aristotle.

I think my position on Law Enforcement -AS IT CURRENTLY EXISTS- is pretty much established and known. Having worked in the field as a Correctional Officer I've seen the immediate and long-term after effect of interactions with police. I've had contact with police where they have seen me as somebody on "their side" where they have revealed their real thoughts about "criminals" and how they approach situations. They'll deny it if asked, but you can absolutely hear it in their words, the meaning hid just under the surface, that they are looking for a fight. They're going to show up to a situation 7 to 1 with enough weaponry to give any hot head a chubby.

My experiences were absolutely sickening. I had no issues dealing with inmates. The politics, the disregard for human beings, the exploitation of inmates for labor and other issues are all just examples of the entire system gone wrong.

Also, Aristotle, regarding the hiring of better police officers - it's too well documented that there is an active process of denial of qualified applicants based on how well they score on various tests. If you perform too well, you aren't what they're looking for. Not implying that cops are dumb, because most of the time they're not, but those with well above average mental traits get denied because they've been found to question legality of orders, be empathetic to suspects, lower aggressive tendencies, etc. All traits that are not desired. They're going to have to want these traits instead before you'll start finding changes in the system.

[Red Syns]

Dude, as usual, you're always dealing in extremes, hyperboles, and distorting facts. All the while stinking up the thread with a red herring that takes away from the original idea of the thread.

Dude, as usual, the first post is titled "Again. Police murder two more innocent black men. How do we stop this?"

Dude, as usual, the post gives no acknowledgement to the fact that the investigation is ongoing, that both individuals were armed, and at least one of them put his hand in the vicinity of his weapon.

Are you so blind as to think that doing such a thing will not receive an immediate, violent response?

Have you not seen the videos of police officers being executed/attempts made at their execution during "routine" traffic stops?

Tell me, of the recent outrages spawned by the deaths of black men at the hands of police (nevermind the fact that in that same time, more white men have been killed at the hands of police), how many incidents have been found to be unjustified?

How many were found to be excessive force?

Not Michael Brown. He was guilty as fuck of assaulting a cop, and died for it.

Not Freddie Grey. Currently, all officers (wrongly) charged in his death have been cleared, and several have already filed a counter-suit.

Tell me, how many bodycam videos have shown abuse of power? Oh, right. They almost universally show the officer was in the right.

So go ahead, tell me I'm being divisive. I'm not the one spewing shitposts titled that "Yet another black man murdered by cops" when previous incidents titled the same way have, AFAIK (and I'll be the first to admit, floating in the ocean for 3 of the last 4 months leaves me a little disconnected) resulted in "Not excessive force."

Please, make more posts before investigations are completed. Make more statements about how the black community suffers an unjust treatment, despite the fact that the numbers disagree. Keep feeding the racist as FUCK Black Lives Matter movement and their hateful, destructive, violent "demonstrations" that burn whole cities to the ground.

[Kailen]

Please, make more posts before investigations are completed. Make more statements about how the black community suffers an unjust treatment.

You're absolutely correct because we have such a strong track record with Justice and no historic examples of unjust treatment. I'm corrected.

[Red Syns]

Did I say there are no historical examples? There are probably even modern examples for many areas, drug charges come to mind.

But drug charges ARE NOT THE SAME THING AS OFFICER INVOLVED SHOOTINGS.

Pick your topic. This one is about OIS, and "how to stop them." Yet, OIS have, in recent history, (nearly?) all been shown to be fully justified. The one involving Tamir Rice is an example of a situation badly handled, and I admit that I don't know enough about the followup investigation. However, to my knowledge, every other incident of OIS/Officer Involved Death has resulted in a ruling of "not excessive force," despite posts just like this one crying foul before the investigations are complete.

If they investigations/courts find the officers guilty of excessive force, then charge and try them with murder. But posts like the OP, which are crying foul before full investigations are completed because they saw a video on the internet and read that some civilian thinks it is so, are fucking stirring up shit for no justifiable reason.

If there was no investigation into it, that'd be grounds for protesting/demanding changes.

If there was a clearly botched/mishandled investigation or coverup, that'd be grounds for protesting/demanding changes.

If there was a ruling of excessive force in a court of law and no charges are filed, that'd be ground for protesting/demanding changes.

But this shit, blaming police when, in recent history, such blame has been woefully misplaced, and before any evidence comes to light of it being unjustified and excessive force, is getting old. Really, really old.

[Rosuav]

Dude, as usual, the first post is titled "Again. Police murder two more innocent black men. How do we stop this?"

Dude, as usual, the post gives no acknowledgement to the fact that the investigation is ongoing, that both individuals were armed, and at least one of them put his hand in the vicinity of his weapon.

One thing that annoys me about these kinds of news announcements and discussion threads is the way terms like "murder" get thrown around. You cannot say "Police MURDER blah blah" until they've been convicted of the crime of murder. You can say that they killed them in a shootout, but they did not murder them until the trial is over... unless you folks no longer have an "innocent until proven guilty" policy.

[Gromgor]

Pick your topic. This one is about OIS, and "how to stop them." Yet, OIS have, in recent history, (nearly?) all been shown to be fully justified. The one involving Tamir Rice is an example of a situation badly handled, and I admit that I don't know enough about the followup investigation. However, to my knowledge, every other incident of OIS/Officer Involved Death has resulted in a ruling of "not excessive force," despite posts just like this one crying foul before the investigations are complete.

If they investigations/courts find the officers guilty of excessive force, then charge and try them with murder. But posts like the OP, which are crying foul before full investigations are completed because they saw a video on the internet and read that some civilian thinks it is so, are fucking stirring up shit for no justifiable reason.

If there was no investigation into it, that'd be grounds for protesting/demanding changes.

If there was a clearly botched/mishandled investigation or coverup, that'd be grounds for protesting/demanding changes.

If there was a ruling of excessive force in a court of law and no charges are filed, that'd be ground for protesting/demanding changes.

I want to be able to shoot people and then self-investigate my actions and decide if they were justified, questionable, or unjustified and if I should happen to decide they were questionable or unjustified have an army of lawyers backing me, paid for by the very victims of my actions, who, after the District Attorney pleads my defense for me, will nod and smile and then ask me if I want the city to sue the family of the victim for the costs of coming to court.

I mean, that's not outrageous, is it?

[Red Syns]

Tell me, Gromgor, what incidents have occurred in recent history that were clearly covered up/poorly investigated?

Freddie Grey: every single officer involved was charged, by the District Attorney (?), with vary degrees of involvement with his death. Yet, despite the wild and sensationalist accusations, the investigation (conducted in part by the involved Police Department and in part by entities OUTSIDE the involved police department) revealed through court case results that none of the cases (that have already ended) ended with "Guilty" charges. Not. One. You know what would have also stopped him from getting arrested that day? Not breaking the same law he'd broken many times before.

Michael Brown: After sensationalist news articles incited local and not-so-local populations into rioting and burning down half of a city for weeks, the evidence became clear: a criminal stole, shoved the clerk, illegally walked down the middle of a street, was questioned, then ASSAULTED A POLICE OFFICER, AND VERY NEARLY KILLED HIM EXCEPT THE OFFICER HAD A FIREARM. Oh. Wait, he was just a sweet, innocent little boy, touted by shit fucking posts like this one about how innocent he was. Look at that picture of him six years ago. Does that look like a killer to you? You know what would have also stopped HIM from dying that day? Not breaking multiple laws, as he had done before.

Tell me, Gromgor. What incident has the media spewed forth endless, mindless drivel in recent history that was, in the end, abuse of power? The closest I can think of is Tamir Rice, where the police certainly could have chosen another way to approach the situation, to include keeping their distance and using megaphones. At the same time, if you point a realistic looking weapon at any armed individual, police or not, don't expect anything but an escalation of the situation. YOU already raised it to lethal levels.