Origin of Islam

[Jidoe]

You will find contradictions like that in any holy or unholy scripture, simply because it is written by more than one author (both the old testament and the new testament are well known for these contradictions).

All the main religions are using those scare techniques in order to make sure the brainwash is complete and that the common person does things out of freight and not out of actual and true belief. It is not special for Islam. As George Carlin used to say (not in these exact words but similar) - "We are praying to God to kill them. They are praying to God to kill us. Someone is going to be very disappointed."

[Aevar]

Of course we'll find contradictions in any Holy scripture. The point of illuminating the Al Quran's contradictions is so that the readers here will not be swayed by Muslim apologists saying that their book is a perfect work free from any contradiction.

"Don't they ponder over the Quran, had it been from anyone besides Allah, they would surely have found therein many contradictions."
(Quran 4:82)

[Malacasta]

Oh get off it. There simply aren't these hordes of Muslim apologists here proclaiming that the Koran is a holy book without contradiction.

Who are you talking to exactly?

[Aevar]

Well I guess there aren't any hordes of apologists here. Is this covered in the logical fallacy thread?

Anyway, I'm talking to everyone. Ros chats us up about tech, Ari about sports, etc. etc. to each his own. I like theology, and I think I have something to add to the discussion.

If someone starts a pro-war, or pro-socialism, or pro-capitalism, or anti-abortion, or anti-federal gov, or anti-women's suffrage thread would you be there asserting your position?

I'm not just vomiting text onto the screen here. I'm weighing in with points drawn from authoritative sources within the subject matter. I'm also communicating ideas that are opposed to dawa. I am talking about Islam to everyone choosing to read through this tread on Islam.

Now why don't you be clear about your position on this thread, and why you are calling foul on me?

[Pae]

The Qu'ran is a tough discussion to have because many of us do not even have a passing familiarity with the actual scripture. Many of our understandings are based on the actions and words of the followers.

Heck, there are many people in North America who do that with Christianity. I've seen a number of comments from a number of people that criticize Christianity citing the evil done as a result of the followers within that faith making poor choices and justifications.

The thing is, every religion and/or non-religion will have people exactly like that. There is no perfect belief system that does not have extremists who twist things to suit their own personal benefit. Atheists are not immune to this - they just don't use the word God in their beliefs.

Instead, I would pose the question what GOOD has Islam done in the world? How has Islam benefited the world? I'd rather judge a set of beliefs by the pinnacle of their believers rather than the wretched worst.

I'm not a muslim so I feel very unqualified to answer that question, but it would be easy for me to list off the good that Christianity has done but that's not the point of this thread.

A quick google search has yielded little results but since the english portion of Internet is predominantly anti-muslim it's tough to wade through if there is an answer to the aforementioned question.

[Snrrub]

Originally posted by Pae
Instead, I would pose the question what GOOD has Islam done in the world? How has Islam benefited the world? I'd rather judge a set of beliefs by the pinnacle of their believers rather than the wretched worst.

Naturally, there have been a lot of Muslims that have contributed greatly to the world - in mathematics, astronomy, etc. But I find it hard to believe that those scholars would have been any less scholarly had they not been Muslim.

In general, I think that any dogma that requires and encourages irrational thinking cannot be inherently helpful to the progress of civilization.

[Kard]

Originally posted by Pae
Instead, I would pose the question what GOOD has Islam done in the world? How has Islam benefited the world? I'd rather judge a set of beliefs by the pinnacle of their believers rather than the wretched worst.

It's hard for me to read a statement like this and not think you're trolling, so here's a low-effort crappy wikipedia link for you to glance over listing contributions from before the 13th century during the golden age of the Abbasid Empire, which was cut short by a rampaging horde of Mongols:

Low-effort crappy wikipedia link

PS: The word 'algebra' comes from Arabic. 7th and 8th graders everywhere, weep.

[Kard]

Originally posted by Snrrub
But I find it hard to believe that those scholars would have been any less scholarly had they not been Muslim.

A person is a result of the sum total of their experiences and upbringing. You're basically saying by removing Islam, a core part of their cultural, religious, and social-political system they would be the same person on some kind of educational and scholarly level.

Before Islam, the Arabs were disorganized and scattered, too busy warring and raiding other pagan tribes or carrying out some clan feud or another. Would you say the same advances would have come out of this un-Islamic version of society?

Or even if Islam failed to materialize, and it was Catholicism or Orthodoxy that swept through the region in force, it still seems pretty unreasonable to say this alternate culture would have produced the exact same results. Christianity, for the most part, appeared to discourage seeking answers to questions about the natural world from any place other than God. Islam at least had the concept of 'Ilm to help spur the innovations and inventions made in the past.

In general, I think that any dogma that requires and encourages irrational thinking cannot be inherently helpful to the progress of civilization.

I agree, which is why I think we both tend to have a problem with religion in general.

[Jidoe]

Originally posted by Kard
Before Islam, the Arabs were disorganized and scattered, too busy warring and raiding other pagan tribes or carrying out some clan feud or another. Would you say the same advances would have come out of this un-Islamic version of society?

That is still the case in most Arab societies. Between the different clans there is great animosity and all too often rape, murder and general brutality. The only thing that unifies them is their hate for the west, and even that hate is usually not as big as to one another.

[Pae]

Originally posted by Kard
It's hard for me to read a statement like this and not think you're trolling

I'm sorry you read it that way. I was genuinely saying what I think about the issue. I wasn't trying to troll nor incite anyone about it. It was honest.

It's how I feel often when I'm judged based on my beliefs because of association with others who claim to have the same beliefs as me. I would suspect there are muslims who feel the same.

It doesn't mean I agree with the extremists of either side. I don't, at all. They are a plague in my mind as well.

I am just choosing to not judge Islam based on the extremists as others seem to. I actually do not know enough about Islam to make any sort of intellectual judgement either way, I'm just refusing to make an emotional one.

I suspect an intellectual conversation about the Qu'ran and the religion is moot because I'd guess none of us have actually read the Qu'ran with intentional study before.

I'm open to actually studying the Qu'ran as opposed to google searching various terms to explore it further if anyone else is game. I've never done it myself and am kind of curious.