Origin of Islam

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Solubynn

Again, this was the age of literature. The latest poem was back then today's equivalent of the latest technology. It was on everyone's tip of the tongue and everyone rushed to memorizing it.

Are you seriously claiming that the Quran was passed on, orally, for hundreds or thousands of years, and not a SINGLE word ever got changed or altered in the process?

Is that really your claim here?

[Xywalan]

To clarify where my biases lie, I stress that I believe all holy books are made up by men who were ignorant (this accounts for various scientific non-sense within the books) but quite smart (this accounts for the often high literary quality of the book).

I don't dispute that Quran is an admirable book from literary point of view (at least at some of its passages). For example, from what I know, the back and forth move in time during its story telling and its interweaving of stories is quite nice. Certainly it is a book that has influenced many poets afterwards (both due to its religious significance and also style).

However, that human mind can create valuable poetry is not something that requires supernatural explanations. Nobody claims that Beethoven is the greatest prophet because he composed some of the most influential pieces of music when he was deaf.

Quran just like Bible mentions only trivial observations regarding nature and sometimes gets those observations wrong. For instance, it is pretty clear that in both books Earth is considered flat (a trivial observation that can be made by any one).

[Maelgrim]

Are you seriously claiming that the Quran was passed on, orally, for hundreds or thousands of years, and not a SINGLE word ever got changed or altered in the process?

Inb4 a kid's game of chinese whispers debunks that in a flaming wreck.

Inb4 the PC patrol gets butthurt at me for calling it 'chinese' whispers and not whatever pastel wuss name they've given the game now.

[Cyrinne]

Originally posted by Maelgrim
Inb4 a kid's game of chinese whispers debunks that in a flaming wreck.

Inb4 the PC patrol gets butthurt at me for calling it 'chinese' whispers and not whatever pastel wuss name they've given the game now.

It's called 'Telephone!'

I've actually never even heard it referred to as Chinese whispers, even in my childhood. Maybe that's an aussie thing.

[Xywalan]

Originally posted by Solubynn
Yet, there is only one version of the Qur'an. If there was one disagreement, just one, then we'd have different versions of the Qur'an, which isn't the case.

Again, this was the age of literature. The latest poem was back then today's equivalent of the latest technology. It was on everyone's tip of the tongue and everyone rushed to memorizing it.

One has to ask, if it was inconsistently passed from word of mouth, how were they able to keep the following mathematical rules intact:

http://www.almuhands.org/forum/showthread.php?t=97317

You'll need to scroll down a bit to see what I mean. This was found and verified years ago.

I've tried to verify this a few times and I never found it to be accurate. I use tanzil.info which I was told* to be the best Quran search engine (click on the search "tips" for its capabilities).


* One of my friends was involved in its development and I was told the reason was that the existing search engines could not deal with the complicated grammar of Arabic language. On a curious side, he noted they could not find an error free Quran database to import in their site. Almost everything that they tried had errors. At some point he, who is a Muslim, commented how ridiculous is the traditional Islamic claim that the Quran has not changed at all from its original form without a single written form while it is extremely difficult to find a single correct copy in the age of communication.

[Solubynn]

Originally posted by Snrrub
For starters, the Islamic religion preaches young-earth creationism, which is false.

According to the Quran, the moon is a light source rather than a light reflector. This is false.

According to the Quran, all the stars are missiles to be used against devils. This is false.

According to the Quran, someday the stars are all going to fall out of the sky. This is false.

Need I go on?



So tell me, which of the following is more logical to believe? That 1) the mathematical trivia was the result of coincidence, deliberate intent, or clever accounting, or 2) That it is the result of supernatural intervention.

Snrrub,

You still persist on posting claims as truths without even posting verses, and when you do, you just post portions of those verses as a skewed attempt to support your claims.

I can even relate every single lie posted above to a verse that will prove you were just claiming stuff that are not in the Qur'an. But will it really matter?

What's really amusing is that everything you state goes against your set of beliefs by definition:

- If you don't believe in creationism, then yeah, the claim is false. Touche =(

- If you don't believe in devils, then yeah, the claim is false. Shit, you got me there =(

- If you don't believe in judgement day, then yeah, the claim about stars falling from the skies is false. Damn, you really nailed us believers =(

That leaves the claim of the moon being a source of light. It's obvious that you haven't gone past those Anti-Islamic forums to research that claim. There is not a single verse that states, even remotely, that the moon is a light source. Do you never speak of moonlight? It's a very common notion that means *gasp* the light emitted by the moon, but it doesn't say that the moon is a light source. That's how the moon and its light where ever mentioned in Qur'an.

Furthermore, the word light attributed to the moon is "Nur", while the word light attributed to the Sun is "Do'". Both translate in English as Light, but you forget that Arabic is a very old, rich language. If there was a single inconsistency, other words would've been used at different places in the text. There's a pretty good reason why the word light differs between Sun and Moon the way it does, and I doubt you'd be able to dispute this fact unless you're a scholar of the arabic language.

In any case, I don't think all this matters to you. You're adamant about your position and I respect that, but please don't support it with claims that are poorly quoted and/or cited.

[Solubynn]

Originally posted by Aristotle
You said the exact same thing Xywalan said, and then you said it was false. That makes no sense.



Huh? Jesus lived in the Age of Medicine? Says who? That's asinine.

No, I completed what Xywalan. This basically makes my statement different.

And yes, by the time Jesus came around, Greeks and Egyptians had developed very powerful medical and surgical techniques, some of which have completely unidentified processes/tools to this day. A HUGE example of this is the process of mummification. We know how it works, but nobody, during our time, was able to claim performing a correct mummification.

[Solubynn]

Originally posted by Xywalan
I've tried to verify this a few times and I never found it to be accurate. I use tanzil.info which I was told* to be the best Quran search engine (click on the search "tips" for its capabilities).


* One of my friends was involved in its development and I was told the reason was that the existing search engines could not deal with the complicated grammar of Arabic language. On a curious side, he noted they could not find an error free Quran database to import in their site. Almost everything that they tried had errors. At some point he, who is a Muslim, commented how ridiculous is the traditional Islamic claim that the Quran has not changed at all from its original form without a single written form while it is extremely difficult to find a single correct copy in the age of communication.

Did you do the research in english or arabic?

From what I can see, this site only runs an english language search engine. If you used a search engine in english using the words in the link I posted then that explains why it gave inaccurate results. Arabic and english are pretty different in structure, and sometimes arabic expressions/words that mean different things can translate to the same word in english.

[Snrrub]

Originally posted by Solubynn
You still persist on posting claims as truths without even posting verses,

It's well known that the religion preaches creationism and other things that are scientifically incorrect. If you want particular passages as references to my other examples, I can supply them to you.

Originally posted by Solubynn
I can even relate every single lie posted above to a verse that will prove you were just claiming stuff that are not in the Qur'an.

Then please do so.

Originally posted by Solubynn
What's really amusing is that everything you state goes against your set of beliefs by definition

Your religious beliefs are not on par with my beliefs. Evolution, old-Earth geology, astronomy and other fields of science require no belief. One simply needs to examine the evidence and reach a logical conclusion. You hold your beliefs without scientific evidence. The people who invented those beliefs when they wrote your religion didn't know that things evolved; they were ignorant of evolutionary biology. They didn't know that the Earth orbited the Sun. They didn't know that infections are caused by microorganisms rather than curses. They didn't know that storms and volcanoes and earthquakes can be explained through natural science rather than by divine judgement. They new little, so they came up with the only explanations they could - supernatural ones. The fact remains that they were ignorant of the truth.

Originally posted by Solubynn
- If you don't believe in creationism, then yeah, the claim is false. Touche =(

- If you don't believe in devils, then yeah, the claim is false. Shit, you got me there =(

- If you don't believe in judgement day, then yeah, the claim about stars falling from the skies is false. Damn, you really nailed us believers =(

There is no evidence for creationism, or devils, or judgement days. Believing in these things is as reasonable as believing in the Eastern bunny or Santa Clause.

Originally posted by Solubynn
That leaves the claim of the moon being a source of light.... There is not a single verse that states, even remotely, that the moon is a light source.

71:15 See ye not how Allah hath created seven heavens in harmony,
71:16 And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp ?
71:17 And Allah hath caused you to grow as a growth from the earth,

Originally posted by Solubynn
Do you never speak of moonlight? It's a very common notion that means *gasp* the light emitted by the moon

Visible light is not emitted by the moon. That's a fairly understandable mistake for humans to make given our natural senses, but scientifically there's a world of difference between light emission and light reflection. An all-knowing creator of the universe would appreciate that difference.

Originally posted by Solubynn
It's obvious that you haven't gone past those Anti-Islamic forums to research that claim.

You seem to be pretty presumptuous about my associations. Notice that when you began arguing the other side of this debate, I did not say things like, "You must be saying that because you're a Muslim". I didn't make any personal assumption about you at all. I certainly didn't attack your motivations for participating in the argument. Your attempt here to attack my character by implying hatred or bigotry on my part is not only false, but also foolish.

[Aevar]

Here are some contradictions. When my bro gets back in town I will get them to you in Arabic as well.

Read Quran 2:256:

Read Here (There is no compulsion in religion)

Now compare to the following:
Read Here

9:3 (Announce painful punishment to those who deny the faith)

9:5 (Slay the idolaters where you find them)

9:29 (Fight Christians who do not believe)

Are these not contradictions?

If they're not contradictory enough I'll bring up the applicable hadith.