Modern Islam... what can you say?

[anthson]

Originally posted by leira
That doesn't exactly sound like an apology to me.

You're apologizing for Islam, saying the followers would be doing shit just as nuts if they were Christians or Jews or Hindus. You're saying it's the followers, not the religion. I can't believe I have to explain these very understandable things, especially when you're the one who said them.

You know, I find it laughable that all you people posting here who clearly hate the Bible claim to have such authoritative understanding of it.

[Jidoe]

Originally posted by anthson
You know, I find it laughable that all you people posting here who clearly hate the Bible claim to have such authoritative understanding of it.

Speaking for myself, it's more a problem of disbelief than hate. On top of that, I find it laughable that religious people assume agnostics/atheists/whatever don't know anything about the bible. Pathetic.

[leira]

Originally posted by anthson
You're apologizing for Islam, saying the followers would be doing shit just as nuts if they were Christians or Jews or Hindus. You're saying it's the followers, not the religion. I can't believe I have to explain these very understandable things, especially when you're the one who said them.

If it's somehow not clear, I want Islam to vanish forever, probably even more than you do.

Originally posted by anthson
You know, I find it laughable that all you people posting here who clearly hate the Bible claim to have such authoritative understanding of it.

And I find it laughable that a man who believes his wife has a divine duty to be submissive to him is posting about the evils of Islamic misogyny.

[anthson]

Once again you miserably fail in your understanding of fundamental differences between religions. Do you have any idea how public your ignorance is? Years ago I'd have bothered to make a futile attempt at educating you, but the fact is you don't know the differences and don't care to. You don't know what I believe, what the Bible teaches, or what the differences are between it and modern Islam. This makes you uneducated, which wouldn't be such a crime if your mouth wasn't so insufferably large on the topic.

What's great though is that everyone who knows better than you is given a constant view of your lack of understanding. I don't even have to explain it for everyone. You just keep on posting and proving someone else's point at the same time.

[Darion]

One more, and I lock the thread.

[Xywalan]

Originally posted by Aevar
I think we were talking past each other. I was speaking of Judaism and the Torah, and not the Biblical Old Testament.

Anyway, I still don't think the two religions compare. The Torah goes into great depth with its crime and punishment, and it is still followed to the letter by the Hasidim and other orthodox Jews. However, their strict adherence to the Torah does not lead to executions or flogging.

And stoning is in Islam:

Volume 2, Book 23, Number 413:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar : (adulterer stoned)

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 421:
Narrated 'Aisha: (adulterer stoned)

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 860:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani: (adulterer stoned)

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195:
Narrated Jabir: (adulterer stoned)

That is a bit misleading. Hadith is not a part of Quran and it is not considered a part of the holybook. And the law for stoning appears in Toarh. But these are minor points. If Jews and Muslims want to stick to the real teachings of the their religion, they both should stone adulterers.

[Rosuav]

Originally posted by Xywalan
Ros, read the passage:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+6&version=NIV

Bible makes it clear that LORD approved of their actions. Besides, there are other instances of genocide in the OT as well. This is not the only one.

I'm familiar with the passage. But the thread was discussing a legal system and ongoing laws for the punishments for crimes; this passage is an act of war. See previous post.

[Tartun]

Is this thread arguing ancient history of every religion as a justification of MODERN atrocities by Middle Eastern Islamic nations?

I don't see how even RECENT history holds any bearing over how we as a world community view our actions today.

The Greatest Generation, in WWII carpet bombed Germany in "The Good War" but our efforts in Iraq accidently kill a few hundred civilians and we begin talking of "warcrimes".

Obviously a little time changes everything for Western civilization, but much of the "Third World" and even "Industrialized" Islamic Nations still live in a barbarous, backward manifestation of civilization.

[Malacasta]

Originally posted by Tartun
our efforts in Iraq accidently kill a few hundred civilians and we begin talking of "warcrimes".

Please provide a source that states ONLY 'a few hundred civilians' have been killed.

[Aevar]

Originally posted by Xywalan
If Jews and Muslims want to stick to the real teachings of the their religion, they both should stone adulterers.

I'm sorry, Xywalan, but you are completely incorrect. According to the Mishnah, the maximum punishment for Lo-Tin-Af (adultery) is strangulation. For any case involving capital punishment, twenty-three judges (opposed to the usual three for lesser crimes) are required for the trial. The judges are obligated to impose rapid death, minimize pain, and leave NO mutilation. Strangulation for adultery required that the two witnesses (required for the case) and the accuser be present. Furthermore, the Gemmorah records that one execution in seventy years should be considered by the council as "runaway murder." The Rabbis went to great lengths attempting to avoid executions wherever possible. The most common punishment was, like I said before, to have the accused drink water that has had the Tetragrammaton dissolved within. If execution was the sentence, then it was carried out by soft cloths attached to two cords which were pulled in opposite directions on the neck, along the attitude of the ears, not the front of the throat, as that would cause unnecessary pain. A couple more relevant points, the two witnesses had to carry out the execution to ensure that they were not being frivolous in their accusation, and also as a final hope for pardon. The witnesses themselves were subject to brutal cross examination and inquiry, and it was required that their testimonies match to the exact hour and description of circumstances in the face of seventy one separate interrogations. The Mishnah and Gemmorah also go into great depth about the character of judges on capital cases, and anyone who had any history of cruelty, temper, or dispensation towards corporal punishment was automatically disqualified for hearing any capital case.

See:
Seder Nezikin/fourth order of Mishna, fourth tractate "Sanhedrin."

Let's get this clear. The Old Testament is NOT the Torah and does not contain Talmud. The Old Testament is Biblical, and for the benefit of Christendom.

Originally posted by Xywalan
That is a bit misleading. Hadith is not a part of Quran and it is not considered a part of the holybook.

The Hadith is canon in Islam. Every Muslim is required to observe Sunnah, which is dictated to the Ummah by the Hadith. Observing Sunnah is absolutely mandatory.

From the Quran:
“Whosoever obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allaah” (Surah An-Nisa 4:80),

“But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you (O’ Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission” (Sura An-Nisa 4:65)

“It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decreed by Allaah and His Messenger to have any choice in the matter. If anyone disobeys Allaah and His Messenger he is clearly astray” (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:36).


In conclusion, Judaism does not stone adulterers, and citing Hadith as authoritative in Islam is not misleading.

Study up, young Padawan.