Modern Islam... what can you say?

[Jidoe]

Originally posted by Xywalan
I see what you mean but I wonder how do you describe the phenomenon of "suicide bombing"?

To me, something qualifies as modern in this context if it significantly differs from all the previous related practices or ideas.

Thus, with my definition treating women as half-men (e.g., counting the testimonies of four women equal to those of two men) is not modern since it has been practiced for centuries. Suicide bombing on the other hand is a modern phenomenon.

I wrote it in a previous post - just because it's old doesn't mean it's not modern, if it is still practiced. Worshipping Greek Gods is not modern because pretty much nobody practices that anymore. Worshipping God and Jesus is modern, even though they are quite old.

As for suicide bombing - that definitely stands by the definition of modern, but I don't see the connection to the topic of this thread at all.

[Aevar]

I think I have something to add to this discussion, and hopefully get it away from semantics and back on track.

I: MISOGYNY:

A: From the Quran:

(4:34):

Yusuf Ali:
"....As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."

Pickthal:
"...As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great."

Shakir:
"...and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."



B: From the Hadith (http://www.uga.edu/islam/hadith.html):

"Umar reported the prophet as saying: "A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife". (Hadith Of The Sunan Of Abu Dawud, Chapter 709 - On Beating Women, #2142)

"... Umar then came forward, and when he had asked and had been granted permission he found the Prophet sitting sad and silent with his wives around him. He told that he decided to say something which would make the Prophet laugh, so he said, "Messenger of God, I wish you had seen the daughter of Kharija when she asked me for extra money and I got up and slapped her on the neck." God's messenger laughed and said, "They are around me as you see asking for extra money." Abu Bakr then got up, went to A'isha and slapped her on the neck, and Umar did the same to Hafsa ... "(Mishkat Al-Masabih, p. 690: Muslim).
NOTE: Check the context if you wish. It doesn't change these excerpts' implied meaning.

Talq b. `Ali reported God's messenger as saying, "When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven." (Mishkat Al-Masabih, p. 691: Tirmidhi)

Narrated Abu Huraira: "The Prophet (p.) said, "if a man invites his wive to sleep with him an she refuses to come to him, then angels send their curses on her till morning." (Bukhari, vol. 7, hadith 121, p. 93)

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: "The Prophet (p.) said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind." (Bukhari, vol. 3, hadith 826, p. 502)


C: Relevance to Modern Islam:

Sermon on the Matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY
Rules on the Matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh7qi...eature=related

And just in case you say that these are not "Real Muslims" as so many Islam apologists do...
From the Clerics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wseFg...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Ooe...eature=related

II: PEDOPHILIA:

A: From the Quran:

(33:49)
"O ye who believe! If ye wed believing women and divorce them before ye have touched them, then there is no period that ye should reckon. But content them and release them handsomely."
NOTE: No waiting period for women remarrying if they have NOT consummated.

(65:4)
"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months,
and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens:
and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."
NOTE: Waiting period prescribed for wives who have not yet reached puberty. By deduction, if the waiting period is only prescribed for consummated marriages, then pre-pubescent girls having a waiting period confirms pedophilia in Islam.

B: From the Hadith:

Al-Bukhaari (3894) "and Muslim (1422) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married me when I was six years old and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

C: Relevance to Modern Islam:

Explaining it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5t9U9r9Kfs
It happens today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJCHt...eature=related

And once again, in case they are not REAL muslims...

Former National (American) Muslim Chaplain Yusef Estes on pedophilia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt7vS7kxc50
(He describes the prophets marriage to the six year old as beautiful as Romeo and Juliet.)



Who am I to weigh in?

I am a former muslim, but am now very apostate.
I've lived in Islamic nations as an oil field worker.
I've lived in oppressive nations as a US Soldier.
I've seen the results of Jihad personally... [MODERATOR NOTE: Contains graphic image. Make it clear next time]

[anthson]

Great post, dude. Much better than all this sissy slap-fighting over semantics.

[leira]

The primary difference I see between Islam and other religions is that more muslims are willing to do the crazy shit their god tells them to do. In the modern world, most religious people basically act like "this holy book is the word of god. except for sections b, m, and q." Most modern cultures deem certain aspects of every religion to be unacceptable, and excuses are made to not follow those aspects. For whatever reason, middle eastern culture is less willing to do this.

I think that the crazy Islamic fundamentalists would be just as bad as they are now if they were following any other religion.

[Snrrub]

Originally posted by leira
I think that the crazy Islamic fundamentalists would be just as bad as they are now if they were following any other religion.

I agree with most of what you said in your post. Most of the world (and certainly all of the civilized world) is not as religiously fervent as the Islamic world, and that it's a good thing. However, I disagree with what I've quoted above.

Not all religions are equally violent and each religion's fanatics are not equally dangerous. For example, the ancient religion of Jainism is built on a core belief of non-violence and compassion for all life (both plant and animal). It is simply inconceivable for a fundamentalist Jain to commit a suicide bombing.

The reason why Islam is so dangerous is because of explicit warrants in the religious texts to commit genocide, slavery, murder of nonbelievers, murder of homosexuals, and so on. Christianity and Judaism give these warrats as well, but as you said, most self-describing Christians and Jews don't take those parts seriously anymore.

[leira]

Originally posted by Snrrub
However, I disagree with what I've quoted above.

That's a fair critcism. "Any" is a bit of a stretch, and would probably be better replaced with "many" or "most".

[Jidoe]

Originally posted by leira
I think that the crazy Islamic fundamentalists would be just as bad as they are now if they were following any other religion.

Personally, I tend to disagree with that statement, for the reasons Snrrub mentioned. However, it could be interesting to discuss that matter through Richard Dawkins' memes.

[Aevar]

Sincere apologies about linking to that image without warning. I forget that mine is not the only perspective at times.


Generally any critical discussion of Islam gets wrangled away from Islam and into the woes of Christianity and the west, and to a lesser extent Judaism. If you can manage to keep the conversation focused on Islam, you will be surprised (or not) by what kind of things muslims will agree to.

No matter how shocked you are that believers are accepting pedophilia, misogyny or this I still would urge everyone to keep the kids' gloves on. It is extremely difficult for one to leave his/her faith. And if you haven't been raised under the inquisitor's brand, then I would dare say that you cannot understand the internal conflict that doubt brings to a believer. It is terrifying when believers contemplate hell, and it is perhaps equally terrifying when believers are ostracized by the Ummah. Stoning, beheading, honor killing is all real.

Taking the kids' gloves off can be necessary though. There hasn't been a Martin Luther in Islam, and the world needs one! Muslim apologists are excellent at destroying any argument which stems from the Bible, which is why every believer steers the discussion in that direction. If they cannot get you to go in depth about the Bible or Western history, then they will set about with the old "Well those are not real Muslims, Islam is about peace." That's when you have to let fly with the evidence.

Once again, leaving a faith one was raised in is a daunting task. However, the reality of misogyny, pedophilia, honor killing etc. is a greater evil than apostasy. It is going on today; and, until I a sweeping majority of believers denouncing such practices, I say that Islam should be held in very low regard.

[leira]

Originally posted by Aevar It is extremely difficult for one to leave his/her faith.[/B]

I have no doubt about this. This is why despite the fact I have an extremely low opinion of religion, I don't necessarily have a low opinion of religious people. Most of them have been brainwashed from birth to believe this bullshit. It is incredibly hard to overcome that, and it takes an exceptional person to do so.

[anthson]

Originally posted by leira
The primary difference I see between Islam and other religions is that more muslims are willing to do the crazy shit their god tells them to do.

Wait, WHAT?

After that huge post by Aevar detailing major fundamental problems with Islam, you still see the primary difference is Muslims are just more devout. I should quit reading this thread. All the apologists for Islam are making me sick.