Police responsible for G20 death?

[Thierran]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7989027.stm

This has caused a LOT of discussion over here, a lot of passionate responses and a lot of opinions being thrown around.

I'm intrested in hearing more.

[Khortez]

Until this event came to public attention people were praising the restraint and sucsess of the police in keeping the protesters in check, and I really don't think this changes that at all. One officer acted impulsivley in a very tense situation and it should not take away from how well, on the whole, the cops managed these protests. People in the UK seem to have some sort of ingrained ideal that we have to take any oppertunity we can get to put the police down, but how many detractors are willing to put on a stab-vest and walk around Brixton or Peckham on a friday or saturday night?

As regards the "attack" istelf I think people need to have a big group-unbunching of their knickers. Had this been many other countries in the world the cops would have been setting off tear-gas, battering people with clubs and who knows what else. Shoving a bloke on his arse won't usually lead to some sort of heart-attack unless he already had some sort of pre-existing condition. I've been diving in to some pretty brutal mosh-pits for 10+ years now, I've seen people being shoved around, thrown to the floor, thrown in to barricades and other people... and not once have I seen someone have a heart attack. This guy was due to drop and the cop shoving him on his arse was the straw that broke him.

[Malacasta]

Ian Tomilson had been attempting to walk from his work place to his home to watch soccer. Although he made several detours to avoid the G20 demonstration, he inadvertently entered a ‘kettle’ and could not leave.

There are lots of discussions about ‘kettling operations’ and it is a very controversial technique. Here is an article that gives a brief overview:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...olice-kettling

The upshot of the ruling and the police's application of their "kettle" formula is that people thinking about embarking on demonstrations in the future may have to decide whether they want to be effectively locked up for eight hours without food or water and, when leaving, to be photographed and identified.

Most people on this site probably oppose the demonstrations and believe that Ian Tomilson was in the wrong place at the wrong time. But in this instance, the wrong place and time was actually a legal demonstration. In England, people have the right to attend (or pass through) legal demonstrations and it is not legal to attack with a baton, a person from behind who is passively walking along a road, and it is not legal to push him (again from behind) with two hands (after you have just whacked him) so hard that he face plants. These officers were not provoked, and this was an unprovoked attack.

More important, to my mind, are the many lies that the police absolutely and explicitly stated about the entire incident.

-Police denied that they had had any contact with this person prior to his collapse. The Guardian video proves that false, but witnesses also have stated that he was also attacked even before the filmed incident:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6062637.ece

Anna Branthwaite, a freelance photographer, said: “He grabbed his back and charged him and threw him forward. Ian landed on his left side and bounced because of the force of the impact. He looked absolutely petrified. Clearly had no idea what was happening.”
Ms Branthwaite, 26, says she then saw the officer strike Mr Tomlinson with his baton twice on the torso or upper legs. “Ian was scrambling to get up and was half up when the same police officer grabbed him again and threw him forward. He took a couple of steps forward, stumbling, and started trying to run away. He was in total shock.

-Police stated that they were pelted with missiles while they were attempting to assist Ian Tomilson, as can be seen here:
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...0402-9k4w.html

Demonstrators pelted police with missiles as they tried to save a dying man during violent London demonstrations, police said…

Witnesses suggest something different: http://tinyurl.com/dxgqjv

"I had him in the recovery position and someone phoned the ambulance," she said.
"They told us to put him flat on his back. I imagine they were about to tell us to do CPR but the police then charged the crowd again so I had to stand in front of him to stop him being trampled."
According to Peter, the police sent four officers and two medics to help Mr Tomlinson. It was then that a single bottle was thrown, he says.
"I saw there was one bottle thrown towards police," said Peter.
"It struck the wall about 10ft above them and some distance to my left of them.
"But the crowd instantly turned round and said there's a man collapsed stop throwing things. After that nothing was thrown."
The medical student said: "Personally, I didn't see anything thrown."

-Police stated that demonstrators hindered ambulances. The following video suggests otherwise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f0S6PPLI8Q

The officer and the incident are now being investigated by the IPCC, the same body that effectively let the Met off for the Menezes incident. UK people commenting here should consider what it means that the very same police who lied through their teeth about Menezes also lied through their teeth about Tomilson. In both cases circumstances were invented to make the police look heroic when in fact, they had behaved recklessly and their actions resulted in the death of innocent people. If a body that is authorized to use violence against citizens is allowed to lie about the circumstances surrounding that violence, even when that violence leads to the death of people who are in no way connected to the action they are policing, then we, as citizens, are allowing the police too much power and too little oversight.

It often surprises me that people who would otherwise rail against the state imposing its will over its citizenry are so quick to defend and believe the state even when it so blatantly oversteps its mandate. I believe that recent history should have eroded much of the trust that people hold in the UK police.

[Malacasta]

The relationship between photographers and police could worsen next month when new laws are introduced that allow for the arrest - and imprisonment - of anyone who takes pictures of officers 'likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism'.

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/sho...ml?page=836675
I had intended to include something about this in the above post. If the laws discussed in the article are enacted and enforced then the ability for people to hold the police accountable for their actions suddenly becomes much more difficult.

[Thierran]

-

[khaltek]

After being in a massive war about this on another forum, I really can't be arsed getting into another one here, but these actions were deplorable and should be dealt with accordingly.

I think the police here do a great job, my family are half police and my best friend is just about to finish his training and get his posting

At the end of the day, this man put up no resistance, he was walking away with his hands in his pockets, when he was attacked, unprovoked, from behind. Minutes later he died of a heart attack. If he hadn't been attacked he could very well have been alive today, the stress of incidents like this increases the chance of a heart attack in even super healthy individual by a factor of six. If this policeman hadn't lost control, this guy would be alive now.

They didn't step up and admit it, they:

a - didn't mention that the police attacked him, only that "protestors hindered paramedics"

b- then insinuated he was drunk, as they insinuated De Menezes was on drugs. (both claims false, by the way)

c- only held their hands up when caught on camera

I'm proud of our police force, they're even-handed and fair in the vast majority of cases, but in order to remain so, incidents like this must be dealt with accordingly, not swept under the carpet.

Yes it was a tense day, yes police had to deal with a lot, but there is never any excuse for forces of the Law to act like this, saying "it was the heat of the moment" makes it merely culpible homicide as opposed to murder.

Recently here a man was punched in the face in a shop and died, there was massive public outrage, no-one said "oh yeah well he obviously wasn't a very sturdy individual"; so saying this poor bastard was "due to drop" is no excuse whatsoever, especially when terrifying and stressful events like this can up the risk of heart attack by up to 35x.

To sum my thoughts up:

The police here do a good job, but it's their accountability which makes them great, this must be dealt with.

[Thierran]

Originally posted by Khortez
Until this event came to public attention people were praising the restraint and sucsess of the police in keeping the protesters in check, and I really don't think this changes that at all. One officer acted impulsivley in a very tense situation and it should not take away from how well, on the whole, the cops managed these protests. People in the UK seem to have some sort of ingrained ideal that we have to take any oppertunity we can get to put the police down, but how many detractors are willing to put on a stab-vest and walk around Brixton or Peckham on a friday or saturday night?

As regards the "attack" istelf I think people need to have a big group-unbunching of their knickers. Had this been many other countries in the world the cops would have been setting off tear-gas, battering people with clubs and who knows what else. Shoving a bloke on his arse won't usually lead to some sort of heart-attack unless he already had some sort of pre-existing condition. I've been diving in to some pretty brutal mosh-pits for 10+ years now, I've seen people being shoved around, thrown to the floor, thrown in to barricades and other people... and not once have I seen someone have a heart attack. This guy was due to drop and the cop shoving him on his arse was the straw that broke him.

If someone did die from a mosh-pit, it would be self-inflicted. The guy was walking home from work, he had his hands in his pockets, he quite obviously did NOT deserve what happened to him.
Who's to say that if he hadn't been pushed and suffered from a shock that he wouldn't be here today, with his family?
I'm pretty sure getting shoved on your arse/hit with batons/assaulted by the police on your way home from work is more of a shock than having your best friends elbow hitting you in the face in a death metal induced frenzy.
There is a second post-mortem ordered and I deeply wish the officer responsible to be held accountable for his actions.
I like the police. I respect and appreciate them. This, however, is not what I have come to expect from a service meant to protect innocent bystanders.
It may have been worse if this was another country but -this- is my country and these are the streets I walk on. Other countries can deal with their own problems and we, quite obviously, need to deal with this.
You said one officer acted 'impulsively'. To me, impulsively would be 'Shit, this criminal is overpowering me, I had better baton him' and NOT 'Shit, this guy is WALKING! Chaaaaarge!!'.

I accept the officer made the wrong decision and it was probably not his intention to knock the guy over and probably induce a heart attack but would you want this officer watching your back? Police training is tough and should prepare you enough so you don't make such a mistake. As he is obviously too subject to human error to manage this then I believe he should be removed from service.

Either that of the guy did it intentionally for a laugh.

See also; Malacasta's post outlining the lies and attempts to smooth things over.

My odd post above was Khaltek not realising I was still signed in on the home latop and accidentaly posting under my name. If someone could remove it, I would be grateful.

[khaltek]

So yeah, anyway, it turns out that he died from internal bleeding, not a heart attack like the police originally stated (without mentioning obviously that they had attacked him minutes before it).

http://www.channel4.com/news/article...+probe/3094582

"ready to drop" indeed.

the video to the screening on Channel 4 News tonight can also be found at www.channel4.com/news

Or the bbc if you prefer: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8004222.stm