Here the Vatican goes again

[Jidoe]

Pope rejects condom use in Afirca

Pope Benedict XVI has said that handing out condoms is not the answer in the fight against HIV/Aids, as he makes his first visit to Africa as pontiff.

Speaking en route to Cameroon, he said distribution of condoms "increases the problem". The Vatican urges abstinence.

It has been said quite often lately in these forums, but still, it is saddening that that Catholic church misguides so many people in Africa that know no better. The effort of years to increase awareness in these communities are being overthrown by one speech that is going to cause the death of many more Africans.

I believe someone already said it - the Vatican has lost its compassion, and it's a shame.

[Pae]

Wow, what a misrepresentation that is. Let's actually quote what the pope said first.

Speaking to reporters on his way to Cameroon's capital, Yaounde, the Pope said HIV/Aids was "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which can even increase the problem".

I got to say, I kind of agree with the guy. Have you actually ever been to places like Kenya and Uganda? If you step back and think logistically condoms will not solve anything.

The problem with this is for starters.. people won't use condoms. See in Kenya or Uganda having HIV/AIDS is akin to having leprosy. Only thing is, you can hide it better. You are shunned, considered a social outcast, killed, etc..

People won't use condoms in many of these places because it would be considered an admission of having HIV/AIDS.

Now set that point aside.

If you've ever actually participated in some african culture (I can only speak to Kenya/Uganda/Sudan which is different that eastern or southern culture) you'd see that sex is a huge problem that isn't solved by condoms. Take the biggest slut you know, multiply that by 100... and that's the degree we're speaking of here. You know how we distract ourselves with MUDs, TV, Movies, Email, Internet... take all that time you have there... they spend theirs having sex.

Combine that attitude with poor living conditions - can you seriously think that condoms will solve the problem? Yes they may use them, but odds are given the living conditions it won't even be effective (dry atmosphere and poor storage will cause many condoms to break during intercourse).


My conclusion is condoms can help slow the problem, but they are a mostly ineffective band-aid fix. The real problem is social and cultural which has NOTHING to do with condoms as a solution.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Pae

People won't use condoms in many of these places because it would be considered an admission of having HIV/AIDS.

I don't agree with this. The main reason to use condoms is so you don't GET HIV/AIDS. The people that know they have it and don't care aren't the ones who will wear condoms for other people's benefit.

If anything, using a condom is a statement that you DON'T have HIV/AIDS, as you are willing to go through the hassle simply because you don't want to catch anything.

Originally posted by Pae

My conclusion is condoms can help slow the problem, but they are a mostly ineffective band-aid fix. The real problem is social and cultural which has NOTHING to do with condoms as a solution.

People said the same thing about condom use in the west, and they were wrong. Widespread condom use has had a dramatic effect on slowing the spread of HIV and other STDs. Sure, it will be difficult at first, but eventually condom use becomes more the social norm, and then you are the outcast if you DON'T use them. Once you get to that point, you can start to turn the tide.

I respect the Catholic Church's general belief in a moral standard that is greater than the vagaries of social change. But on the condom issue they are taking the wrong stance, and have chosen the wrong time to hold with tradition.

[Khortez]

Originally posted by Pae
Wow, what a misrepresentation that is. Let's actually quote what the pope said first.

Er.... Jidoe just quoted the first two paragraphs of the article. Or are you saying that the article mis-quoted the pope?

Anyway, your argument is self-defeating. You’re saying that people in Africa aren’t going to stop having sex as a pastime, so abstinence clearly isn’t going to solve anything. So why not just blanket the place with rubbers? If they’re going to spend as much time fucking as I do mudding, watching TV and movies, emailing and browsing the internet then giving them condoms is the best answer we’ve got right now. Is it going to stop the spread of HIV in Africa? Nope, but I’d rather do it and stop one or two people out of a hundred from contracting HIV than not do it and let the whole hundred catch it.

[Pae]

Originally posted by Khortez
Er.... Jidoe just quoted the first two paragraphs of the article. Or are you saying that the article mis-quoted the pope?

Yes. Which is why I quoted what the pope actually said.

People said the same thing about condom use in the west, and they were wrong.

But this ISN'T the west. This is Africa. That's like comparing apples and oranges. I fully support condoms being handed out in schools here in the West.

I don't agree with this. The main reason to use condoms is so you don't GET HIV/AIDS. The people that know they have it and don't care aren't the ones who will wear condoms for other people's benefit.

You don't have to agree with what is the social and cultural norm. I'm not saying it's logical, I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm simply saying THIS IS AFRICA. This is how their culture operates. You simply cannot apply western thinking and expect it to provide insight into eastern cultural problems.

This is the very root of my argument. We're looking at it from a perspective of the outside looking in. It's like going to mexico and watching their road workers pave roads by hand with shovels and wheel barrows. You get fed up with how slow it goes, so you bring in front end loaders, cement trucks, and get the job done in 10 hours what would have taken them 10 months. While it fixes the cement road, you've put a number of workers out of a job who cannot feed their families.

I respect the Catholic Church's general belief in a moral standard that is greater than the vagaries of social change. But on the condom issue they are taking the wrong stance, and have chosen the wrong time to hold with tradition.

I would like it to be clear that I am not trying to take a moral high ground on this issue. I am genuinely concerned about the AIDS epidemic in Africa and genuinely want to find the BEST solution. I am attempting to highlight that if you set morality aside - the plan of action that it currently is not working.

This is speaking from second hand experience with very close friends who grew up in refugee camps in Uganda and Sudan (and lived in villages in Kenya as well), friends of mine who are peace officers for the UN, missionaries who live there, family members who go there frequently, a neighbour who desperately trying to get his Kenyan family out of the country and the poverty into Canada.

I am not discussing morality, but from what I have come to know and understand of Africa we are going to have to agree to disagree. More condoms will not stop the spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa. It doesn't fix the root of the problem which is social/cultural. It may save a few lives, but I simply believe the amount of money that is being spent on "blanket[ing] the place with rubbers" is better spent trying to solve the root of the problem.

[Malacasta]

What's the root of the problem?

[Jidoe]

Originally posted by Pae
Have you actually ever been to places like Kenya and Uganda?

Yes. I've also been to Tanzania. What's the point in this?

Allow me to quote what you quoted:

Speaking en route to Cameroon, he said distribution of condoms "increases the problem". The Vatican urges abstinence.

No shit, eh? Distribution of condoms "increases the problem". I bet that is a scientific call.

I was NOT saying condoms are the only way to solve the problem, but I am still standing by what I said: The Vatican's efforts to reduce the use of condom is a hinderance to a future solution for that plagued continent. Sure, cultural changes need to occur, but we both know that is not going to happen soon, so what have we left with? Trying to encourage them to use condoms, to release them from the belief someone who is using one is ill.

I am not asking the Vatican to go against what they believe in, but I do ask them to be respectful to an international effort that is only meant to help. So far, the Pope's words have been nothing but detrimental to these efforts, and unfortunately, he is offering no other solution and as you said yourself (though not directly, only through cultural behaviour and pasttime activities) - abstinence is not an option (that is without even going into the fact it simply doesn't work).

[Snrrub]

We alread knew that this pope was a sack of shit, so it's not surprising that he's upholding the church's fine tradition of:

Raping children
Hating gays
Condemning condom use «
Burning witches at the stake

Catholics have had a long history of dismissing the effectiveness of condoms to prevent the transmission of STDs. They even made this claim, that HIV was small enough to pass through condom material. The Vatican seems to always be looking for a new excuse as to why people shouldn't use condoms, and why they might not be effective at preventing the spread of diseases. This is just the latest attempt by priests (read: virgins) to control other people's sex lives.

[Khortez]

"Condoms are the best way to protect yourself against sexually transmitted infections" - From the NHS website. I think I'm going to trust doctors working on sicentific research rather than a geriatric trusting a book written more then 2000 years ago.

As Pae's already said abstinance isn't going to happen in Africa, so the best thing to do is protect where we can.

Oh, and throw the pope in a sack full of angry squirrels.

[Aristotle]

Wow. I think the Catholic Church is totally wrong on the condom issue, but I think some folks are going way too far with the demonization of the RCC.

You have to bear in mind how huge of an organization it is. It is sadly inevitable that some members are going to be bad, weak people who do terrible things (raping children).

The RCC also does an enormous amount of good around the world. That really should not be forgotten. There are places and countries around the world that nobody wants to go to, nobody gives a crap, and they haven't attracted enough celebutard attention to get on tv ("FREE DARFUR!"). In those places, it is generally the RCC and other charities (mostly religious) that are the only folks helping out.

Pointing out the Church's mistakes and where they are going wrong is fine, good, and important. But going off the deep end with extreme defamation doesn't help the issue.