Legalization of Prostitution

[Dalaena]

Originally posted by Elvion
Ari, your arguments are incredibly logical, well thought out, and frankly you're fairly intelligent individual.

But it is difficult to accept your arguments seeing as you are a game developer from Kentucky. I held the same views when I was an Air Traffic Controller in Canada. Now however, actually going out and seeing it for myself as a missionary I realize that all those statistics, and all those logical arguments simply do not apply to the illogical and tragic reality that is out there.

I honestly cannot believe I just read this, and perhaps I'm misreading this and taking it in the wrong way. The simple "game developer from Kentucky" also happens to be married to someone who was born in the sex capitol of the world: Thailand. 95% of my family still lives in Thailand, and my brother and his wife are living there now. Do a google search on "sex tours". Thailand comes up in 80% of the first page. The superiority that just spews from the above post is disturbing as the above poster has no concept of what kind of experiences we have actually seen or have been exposed to. Tooling around Europe doesn't make anyone an expert on any subject, nor does it make one's opinions superior.

Prostitution in Europe is much like prostitution in the US. Both of these barely resembles the kind of prostitution that occurs in Asian countries. In Thailand, prostitution is illegal, and yet, we manage to be extremely well-known for it. Prostitution is NOT the first choice or the 2nd choice or the 100th choice of the women who end up having to go down this career path. In fact, the industrialization of Thailand has cut down a lot on the prostitution which, in turn, has actually managed to drop the number of young girls sold into prostitution. The prostitution itself exists in a way which does not occur in Western cultures, and the lines of prostitution are heavily blurred with family obligations.

There are divisions in Thailand's major universities whose entire project is to study the impact, history, and trends of prostitution in the country. It is such a huge part of our culture, and for many, it is a huge shame. And again, it's difficult to explain because, for so many Thai people, their country's image is intertwined with their own sense of self.

There's little to no regulation in Thailand's prostitution economy (Believe me, it's a GIGANTIC business with a lot of impact on the country.) due to its illegal nature. We have some of the highest numbers of AIDs infected prostitutes as well as numerous other STDs. Children from some of the northern villages are routinely sent to Bangkok to be part of the prostitution rings, and again, there is absolutely no regulations. Thailand's best hope is that prostitution becomes legal and the government takes an active part in cracking down and controlling these rings. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to ever happen since it's likely our culture will never bend enough to accept it. It's our dark, dirty secret that exists in daylight.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Elvion

But it is difficult to accept your arguments seeing as you are a game developer from Kentucky. I held the same views when I was an Air Traffic Controller in Canada. Now however, actually going out and seeing it for myself as a missionary I realize that all those statistics, and all those logical arguments simply do not apply to the illogical and tragic reality that is out there.

Thanks for the condescension and the backhanded "fairly intelligent" comment, but unfortunately you fail on this one.

You forget I am married to a Thai woman, I have been to Thailand, and half of my family is Thai. In fact, I was just in Bangkok this past December and January. If there is a city in the world more famous for prostitutes and the sex trade, I have never heard of it. (Which is a shame, because it is pretty awesome for a lot of other reasons, but that is another topic.) Furthermore, you have absolutely no idea where else I have lived and what else I have done in my life before moving to Kentucky less than 4 years ago.

Half of my family has lived either most of, or their entire life in a country where the sex trade is completely inculcated in their society. It is such an established (though not approved of, per se) part of life, that even 90 year old women will make reference to it.

For the last 10 years, Thai culture has been a major part of my life. It has been a priority and a necessity to learn and experience as much of it as possible. So please don't tell me traveling around as a missionary for a few weeks suddenly makes you Marco Polo and I'm a clueless isolationist who doesn't know about anything beyond my front door. And frankly, talking to a few random people you bump into is not a better way to learn about something that actual research and hard fact.

Then there is the issue of bias. If you are doing missionary work, that already self-selects the type of people you are interacting with. One of the main reasons prostitution is illegal in the first place is because of Christian values (many of which I agree with and share myself). So of course most of the people you talk to are going to have a negative opinion of it.

Lastly, you might want to actually read the article you linked to. There was not one fact or study that said legalized prostitution failed to reduce the amount of human trafficking. There are just politicians on one side saying one thing, and journalists and the actual workers in the industry saying the opposite. Frankly, the article made a stronger case that closing down the red light district would result in more trafficking and worse conditions for the prostitutes.

The Dutch Sex Workers Union fears that many women and girls will be forced to start walking the streets. On its Web site the union calls the city's plans to certify pimps "bizarre." Since prostitution has been legal in the Netherlands since 2000, it argues, sex workers don't need pimps to find a place to work. Ruth Hopkins, a Dutch-English investigative journalist who has written extensively on prostitution in Amsterdam, says the city government overstates the extent of involuntary prostitution. "Even though there are gangs of pimps, a lot of women, mostly Africans and Latinos, do their work in complete independence,"

They have a UNION!

And they aren't talking about making prostitution illegal. They are talking about shutting down a specific district that they feel has gotten out of control crime-wise.

And what about the ladies? The Red Light District has about 450 windows where women offer their services. The majority of those will be closed down. Where will the inhabitants go, once they're forced out of work? Asscher says most of the prostitutes are part of international human-trafficking networks that draw on women from Eastern Europe, and they will most likely move on to Antwerp, Hamburg and other European cities. For those that remain, the city administration may start certifying pimps and require that prostitutes who work for them to be 21 years old.

Even the politician who wants to shut down the red light district understands the need to keep prostitution legal and therefore regulated.

[Caer]

One of the perks of being in school means free access to tons of academic journals and databases. So, I did a quick search of one sociological database and found the following journal articles. These are all published in peer-reviewed academic journals. I only included the abstracts (brief summaries of the study's purpose and major findings) but if anyone wants to track these down, all the information is provided to do so. There is a fair bit of sociological jargon to wade through, but if anyone want to know how a particular term is being used, I'll be glad to explain. I bolded particularly important sentences. The general conclusion from these articles is this: legalization can help reduce violence, stigma, health risks, etc. BUT it needs to be applied to both individuals and businesses, licenses must be easy to obtain, and some attention should be devoted to the role of men as consumers and how prostitution contributes to gender inequality. None of these articles claim legalization is a panacea to the problems associated with prostitution, but there is a general consensus that it can alleviate some of those problems.

Brents, Barbara G., and Kathryn Hausbeck. 2005. "Violence and Legalized Brothel Prostitution in Nevada: Examining Safety, Risk, and Prostitution Policy." Journal of Interpersonal Violence, vol. 20, no. 3, pp. 270-295.

Abstract: This article examines violence in legalized brothels in Nevada. Debates over prostitution policies in the United States have long focused on questions of safety & risk. These discourses inevitably invoke the coupling of violence & prostitution, though systematic examinations of the relationship between the two are sparse. This article explores the issue of violence in the Nevada brothel industry. By drawing on interviews with prostitutes, managers, & policy makers, this article examines both prostitutes' perceptions of safety & risk & brothel managers' practices designed to mitigate violence. Discourses relate to three types of violence: interpersonal violence against prostitutes, violence against community order, & sexually transmitted diseases as violence. The authors conclude by arguing that the legalization of prostitution brings a level of public scrutiny, official regulation, & bureaucratization to brothels that decreases the risk of these 3 types of systematic violence.

Raymond, Janice G. 2004. "Prostitution on Demand: Legalizing the Buyers as Sexual Consumers." Violence Against Women, vol. 10, no. 10, pp. 1156-1186.

Abstract: Research, programs, & legislation related to sex trafficking are often premised on the invisibility of the male buyer & the failure to address men's role in buying & abusing women in prostitution. Governments, UN agencies, nongovernmental organizations (NGOs), & others act as if the male demand for sexual exploitation is insignificant, or that prostitution is so entrenched because, after all, "men will be men." Little research on trafficking has focused on the so-called customer as a root cause of trafficking & sexual exploitation. And even less legislation has penalized the male customer whose right to buy women & children for prostitution activities remains unquestioned. This article looks at the demand -- its meaning, the myths that rationalize why men buy women in prostitution, qualitative information on the buyers in two studies conducted by the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW) -- as well as best practices that address the gender of demand.

Kilvington, Judith, Sophie Day, and Helen Ward. 2001. "Prostitution Policy in Europe: A Time of Change?" Feminist Review, no. 67, pp. 78-93.

Abstract: There has been considerable recent debate about prostitution in Europe that reflects concerns about health, employment, & human rights. Legal changes are being introduced in many countries. We focus on two examples in order to discuss the likely implications. A new law in the Netherlands is normalizing aspects of the sex industry through decriminalizing both workers & businesses. In Sweden, on the other hand, prostitution is considered to be a social problem, & a new law criminalizes the purchasers of sexual services in an attempt to reduce demand. Both reforms appear to have had their desired effect at one level; in the Netherlands, health & safety regulations will be introduced as in any other job, & EU sex workers gain full social, legal, & employment rights; in Sweden, there was initially a tenfold decrease in the numbers of women working visibly on the streets, & some workers have left the industry. However, in both countries, the new legislation has also driven some sex work underground. Many sex workers are excluded by the Dutch system & move underground to become effectively invisible to the authorities. In Sweden, sex workers & their clients also become less visible in order that the latter can avoid sanction. Social & economic changes, such as increased migration & the growing use of the Internet, will also render the sex industry less visible both to state regulation & to health care workers. The major problems of prostitution for the workers remain exploitation, stigma, abuse, & criminalization. These are not unique to the industry, & can only be tackled effectively by the self-organization of sex workers into unions & rights groups, along with full decriminalization. An alternative vision is promised through self-organization & antiracist actions by sex workers in Germany; normalization & workers' rights are tackled alongside training programs for those seeking alternatives. Policymakers throughout Europe would do well to look at their experience & not simply at the clash of legal reforms.

Sullivan, Barbara. 1999. "Prostitution Law Reform in Australia. A Preliminary Evaluation." Social Alternatives, vol. 18, no. 3, pp. 9-14.

Abstract: Reviews the impact of the decriminalization of prostitution on working conditions in Australia's sex industry in Victoria, New South Wales (NSW), & Australian Capital Territory (ACT). Information was obtained from observation of sex industry workplaces & interviews with sex workers & other key informants. Victoria's regulatory framework requires the licensing of all prostitution services but licenses are difficult to obtain & most sex workers remain illegal & less likely to report problems to the police. Providers of prostitution services in ACT only have to register with a public authority. Registration is simple & inexpensive; therefore, there are very few illegal employers. Street soliciting is legal in NSW, except in certain areas, & brothels need only to obtain a permit from their respective council. It is concluded that all forms of decriminalization have some advantages for sex workers; however, legality must be extended to individuals as well as employers because decriminalization of brothel prostitution alone does not significantly improve the living & working conditions of sex workers.

Zatz, Noah D. 1997. "Sex Work/Sex Act: Law, Labor, and Desire in Constructions of Prostitution." Signs, vol. 22, no. 2, pp. 277-308.

Abstract: Examines the social construction of prostitution from the perspective of the feminist & prostitutes' rights movements. Prostitution is generally perceived as fundamentally different from other kinds of service work &, as such, is repressed. It is argued here that the human damage caused by prostitution is not due to the nature of sex work, but to the social environment & stigma surrounding it. The criminalization of prostitution endangers & stigmatizes sex workers, & deprives them of power, protection, & the ability to organize. It is concluded that the legalization of prostitution would open a dialogue over the nature of female sexuality & work, & provide increased protection & options for sex workers.

Satz, Debra. 1995. "Markets in Women's Sexual Labor." Ethics, vol. 106, no. 1, pp. 63-85.

Abstract: Advances an egalitarian approach to prostitution's wrongness that is based on its causal relationship to gender inequality. It is contended that the economic & essentialist arguments against prostitution are not as convincing. It is argued that the immorality of prostitution is only reflected in its contribution to the pervasive social inequality between men & women. If no such causal relationship existed, it is submitted that prostitution would not be morally troubling. Male prostitution does not embody the same sexual inferiority as female prostitution, & as such, does not contribute to gender inequality. Consequently, these arguments tend to support a policy of decriminalization of prostitution.

Campbell, Carole A. 1991. "Prostitution, AIDS, and Preventive Health Behavior." Social Science and Medicine, vol. 32, no. 12, pp. 1367-1378.

Abstract: Extant epidemiological research is presented to explore the relationship between female prostitution & acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS), focusing on features of prostitutes' work lives relevant to the control of AIDS. Specific emphasis is on a comparison of legalized prostitution in Nev with illegal prostitution, drawing on data obtained via interviews with prostitutes & owners of a brothel (N not provided) & with the director of the Las Vegas county health department. Prostitutes face the greatest risk of acquiring AIDS through sexual contact with intravenous drug users. Legalization allows prostitutes to work without fear of arrest, permitting them to implement safety measures during their work lives. Mandatory testing appears to be ineffective as a preventive measure & has implications for the downward social mobility of infected prostitutes. It is argued that empowerment of prostitutes holds the greatest promise for prevention of AIDS, & can best be accomplished through peer education.

[Fynn]

Wow, Elvion comes in with the unbeatable arguement

No ammount of data or statistics can trump my anecdotal evidence.

[Nikira]

Originally posted by Theairoh

The point I am trying to make is that large-scale legal prostitution will create a market that will disable our economy, and at the same time make our 'civilization' just a little bit less civilized.

Maybe I've exaggerated a little here and there, who cares. It's the internet.

Wow, I jumped into this thread late, but, honestly hon, either you're grasping at straws or are seriously miscalculating how the economy works.

Boil it down to supply and demand and you'll see how your concept collapses exceedingly quickly. I, for one, am not willing to pay for it and am fairly certain I'm not the only one. That, decreases demand. Additionally, I'm not willing to provide it, thus decreasing supply.

Your concept that sex sells is correct, but its the intrigue of being more attractive to the opposite sex. Not that sex sells me wanting to run outside and make a buck on my street corner.

Now, the other thing you're not taking into consideration is how high demand is already. Prostitution isn't just sitting on a street corner propositioning Johns that walk past. A simple web search shows that this industry has not only moved to to the internet (craigslist, eros.com, escorts.com were just the first ones I found), but also that their hourly rate is significantly higher than most make today. I'm no expert, but it seems that $300 an hour is a reoccurring number here. (Are you willing to pay that? If not, put a tick in the decreased demand box)

If prostitution currently makes that rate for service (higher than a lot of lawyers and doctors), why isn't our economy ruined by everyone flocking to that market and placing prostitution at the top of their lists? Two easy reasons come to mind, not everyone has the goods to make a lot of people want to have sex with them or, the opposite, not everyone has the ability to be able to have sex with anyone, regardless of attraction.

From this alone I don't even know how to tackle the inaccuracies you have about minimum wage and worker's rights. One, they make far more than minimum wage and that isn't a drain on the government, it is on the business that employs the people (which holds true for health insurance, unemployment, social security, income tax, disability, etc). An additional plus besides safety is that if its legal, the government can now tax the crap out of it instead of spending money to fight it. Considering the state of our prison system, it may not be long before we have to make low end drugs legal, regulated and taxed heavily - instead of spending billions to fight an unwinable war - but that's a shitstorm conversation for another time.

I'm with Ari on this one, if you don't like the concept, that's one thing, but the economic argument doesn't float. If it did, our economy would have been ruined long before Gromgor brought this up.

[Savaric]

There's no way it would be bad for the economy. It keeps money liquid and moving. Women with money spend.

Prosititution isn't for fat ugly guys that can't laid. Lot's of guys don't want hang ups or the strings that come with courting women or becoming attached. The only thing that sucks about single life is the lack of sex ( I can attest, I'm not shy). Prostitutes fill that niche. And it's a win-win scenario because those "escorts" make -damn- good money, money they would otherwise never be able to make. The guy gets laid and a boost to his self-confidence. Works out for everyone.

Don't mix up escorts with the women that walk the streets. That's the low end of the spectrum that goes hand in hand with the drugs and criminal element. Those women's lives could be GREATLY improved by LEGALIZING the trade because they would not have to work around the dangerous underground with drug dealers and thugs. By also legalizing you could cut the pimp out of the equation. We all know how beneficial that would be.