Coming to America? What's your sex life like?

[Rosuav]

People tend to get paranoid about other people knowing things about them. You know what? It doesn't take governmental sharing of information to find out something about you. It doesn't take ultra-personal questions on a form. All it takes is to gather together what's already public knowledge. You'd be amazed how much can be found out. For one example, a person signed on to a railways forum that my brother frequents, trying to be ultra-anonymous. Based on the information he _did_ give, some people did a quick check on the records of registered business names, and found out his full name and street address. That's pretty personal information, and it wasn't hard to find.

Calm down a little from the panic-level "don't-want-anyone-knowing-about-me". People DO know about you, and there's no way you can change that - panic won't help. Paranoia about basic personal information comes across sounding as futile as that guy who reckoned you shouldn't tell anyone that your IP address is 192.168.0.3 (for those unfamiliar with networking, it's like saying that you live in "the second upstairs bedroom" at home, it doesn't tell anyone where "home" is). The only thing paranoia is good for is light humour.

[Malacasta]

I think arguing that the information is already out there is missing the point. I do agree that it's out there, and anyone can pretty much find out anything about you especially if you spend a few bucks, but that doesn't mean that we should support the government's collation of that data, the introduction of 'ID cards' or hand our DNA over to the police.

All of these acts weaken our privacy rights and hand to the authorities the legal ability to harass and imprison people without good cause.

Rosuav, you're from Melbourne so you just need to look at several local cases that are going on at the moment that are causing all sorts of concern amongst the legal community, then of course there's the Haneef case in Queensland. I am friends with a family member of one of the people whose life has been effectively destroyed by the introduction of new laws used to make 'fighting terror' easier. The case was a farce and was thrown out, but that hasn't stopped him and his family being bankrupted, and him being put under control orders.

It is simply not the case that harassment of citizens using private information is theoretical. In Australia, in Britain and in the US there are people who have been held in detention without any good evidence using information that otherwise would be meaningless (he is a muslim, his brother is a member of a left wing political group and so on).

There are new laws being introduced all the time that make access, sharing and using private data easier. Often there are no proper checks and balances on this data being used. For example, while not directly relevant, I read about one new US law recently that seems very troubling:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072201141.html

I don't think any of our governments (the US, the UK or Australia) have earned the right for their citizens to trust them with the information they seem to be seeking. I don't think any citizen should trust that our governments will use the information wisely and with restraint. There are just too many cases of innocent people being ruined, and even killed, to argue otherwise.

[Malacasta]

If this post is seen as a thread hijack then I'll start a new thread, but I just wanted to briefly answer the point about doctor patient confidentiality being sacrosanct. The case of Attorney General Phil Kline vs Dr George Tiller is one where even if Kline is slammed and his case is thrown out, he will have created a chilling effect on women seeking abortions. That the patients' files were seized and read by a political player - regardless of his intentions - killed whatever confidence those women had in keeping their decision and surgery private.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by kestra

The US DHS is going to use this information, and it's going to be abused in one manner or another, be it another method of racial profiling, or otherwise.

Yeah, information always gets abused once it is collected. Thanks, Captain Obvious. The battle is keeping it from being collected in the first place. Once it is collected you are never going to be able to control its use. And who is to blame for collecting it again?

More importantly, this is just your desperately invented new argument after getting exposed for not reading the article in the first place.

I realize you don't care about your credibility or intellectual integrity, but not admitting you went off half cocked with this America flame and failed to read the article is a new low for you.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Malacasta

I don't think any of our governments (the US, the UK or Australia) have earned the right for their citizens to trust them with the information they seem to be seeking. I don't think any citizen should trust that our governments will use the information wisely and with restraint. There are just too many cases of innocent people being ruined, and even killed, to argue otherwise.

I agree 100%. That is why we have to fight, with all ferocity and desperation, EVERY attempt any government makes to GATHER information about us. We should fight every single attempt tooth and nail to make it absolute horrific torture for a government to gather one single byte of data about its people. Then perhaps they will tend to only "win" in the situations where it is truly necessary, and either "lose" or simply give up in fear of the fight when the information is not necessary.

But the only worthwhile battle is fighting against the gathering of the information. You will never get anywhere trying to control how information is used once it is gathered. As long as the information is stored somewhere, someone will find a way to abuse and misuse it. This is why I am against traffic light cameras, biometric ID cards, most of the Patriot Act, and similarly intrusive data gathering schemes.

The thing is though, discussing that very valid issue in this thread is basically pointless. Why? Because Kestra is here, and because Kestra started the thread with a totally inaccurate and embarrassing "America sucks" flame. Right off the bat any hope of a real discussion was eliminated.

[kestra]

I realize you don't care about your credibility or intellectual integrity, but not admitting you went off half cocked with this America flame and failed to read the article is a new low for you.

My god, how you remind me of Bill O'Reilly.
The thought pattern here is keep accusing someone of something in the hopes of wearing them down, gradually going off topic, in order to get the other person into a defensive position.

The thing is though, discussing that very valid issue in this thread is basically pointless. Why? Because Kestra is here, and because Kestra started the thread with a totally inaccurate and embarrassing "America sucks" flame. Right off the bat any hope of a real discussion was eliminated.

America doesn't suck, but this program sure does.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by kestra
My god, how you remind me of Bill O'Reilly.

Right out of the MoveOn.org playbook. Nice one. How does your failure to read the article you based the entire thread on constitute me acting like some political commentator you hate? The fact that you embarrassed yourself BADLY doesn't say a single thing about me or any other poster here. It just exposes you as an irrational America hater.

Originally posted by kestra

The thought pattern here is keep accusing someone of something in the hopes of wearing them down, gradually going off topic, in order to get the other person into a defensive position.

Actually Kestra, when it comes to you, the overwhelming community pattern is much simpler:

Step 1: Point
Step 2: Laugh
Step 3: Pray you are sterile.

Originally posted by kestra

America doesn't suck, but this program sure does.

Bwahahahahaha. You still don't understand the issue. After all this time have you still been unable to tab out of MichaelMoore.com long enough to actually READ the article? It really is hilarious to watch you dig a little deeper with every post.

[kestra]

Right out of the MoveOn.org playbook. Nice one. How does your failure to read the article you based the entire thread on constitute me acting like some political commentator you hate? The fact that you embarrassed yourself BADLY doesn't say a single thing about me or any other poster here. It just exposes you as an irrational America hater.

LOL, there you go again!!

Bwahahahahaha. You still don't understand the issue. After all this time have you still been unable to tab out of MichaelMoore.com long enough to actually READ the article? It really is hilarious to watch you dig a little deeper with every post.

And again.....

[Darion]

I think this thread has just about run its course. If no one has anything spectacularly relevant to add, please let it go.