Coming to America? What's your sex life like?

[Malacasta]

Originally posted by Gadiantor
I assure you, the US doesn't care whether you like to take it in the ass or not if you want to visit.

Okay, I would bet that what you say is true at the moment. However I have several friends who have been denied access to the US for their involvement in political campaigns in Australia. I have had friends who have been detained and questioned about their political activities and beliefs while in the US after being involved in legal activities (such as protests or conferences). Having sensitive and private information in your records about people gives you the power to use that information if you ever need to, like, I don't know, but if a state had anti-sodomy laws, and you had information that Fred was gay, then you could deport him for breaking the law if you wanted to get rid of him. Right?

[Darion]

Originally posted by Malacasta
Having sensitive and private information in your records about people gives you the power to use that information if you ever need to, like, I don't know, but if a state had anti-sodomy laws, and you had information that Fred was gay, then you could deport him for breaking the law if you wanted to get rid of him. Right?

Sure, in the same way jamming enough "if" probabilities into a sentence can make almost anything true.

[Gadiantor]

Originally posted by Malacasta
Okay, I would bet that what you say is true at the moment. However I have several friends who have been denied access to the US for their involvement in political campaigns in Australia. I have had friends who have been detained and questioned about their political activities and beliefs while in the US after being involved in legal activities (such as protests or conferences). Having sensitive and private information in your records about people gives you the power to use that information if you ever need to, like, I don't know, but if a state had anti-sodomy laws, and you had information that Fred was gay, then you could deport him for breaking the law if you wanted to get rid of him. Right?

Political affiliations are important. Some terrorist groups have political arms. I'm in no way insinuating that your friends were terrorists, just pointing out why that information can be useful if you're trying to track terrorists. Of course the smart ones will just lie, as was previously mentioned.

Some states do have laws against sodomy, but now we're crossing the line between the federal and state governments.

Really this whole thing is getting a bit silly now. Instead of bashing the US I think the focus should be on the people collecting this information. If you don't like having information on whether or not you like to be sodomized being available focus your disdain on the people asking the question, recording the answer, and storing that information.

[Kraxe]

I know it was over 8 months ago that this was all in the news (I try to keep up with UK/Europe news), and there was a request for all kinds of information collected on passengers flying to the US to be provided to US authorities. It caused a fairly huge disagreement between the EU and the US and threatened to stop flights to the US (some agreement had to be renegotiated and this was the sticking point). It took them a while to hammer out an agreement, but something was reached, what I do not know. And no, I don’t have sources, this is just from memory. As for the EU ‘wanting’ to give this information up, I don’t think so. As I said, some form of compromise was apparently reached.

However, despite my hilarious earlier post, I do not know what (and if any extra) information regarding sexual information was ever requested. I only know that the request was in such a form that refusal was not really an option.

[Malacasta]

FFS stop inferring that all we're doing is complaining about the US. I've already said I'm fighting against the collection and use of such data in Australia. I can't fight against it in the EU cuz I aint a fucking EU citizen. I'm not a US citizen either. I'd fight australia if we used the EU information but to my knowledge we don't.
Anyways, we've gotten as far as we need to go in this thread. You guys don't give a shit that the US is holding onto irrelevant and private information about tourists from Europe.
Good on ya.

[Gadiantor]

Originally posted by Malacasta
You guys don't give a shit that the US is holding onto irrelevant and private information about tourists from Europe.
Good on ya.

You're right, I don't care if irrelevant and private information about tourists from Europe is held on to, if it means that we're able to collect some relevant information about some terrorists that want to kill innocent US civilians.

[Darion]

You guys don't give a shit that the US is holding onto irrelevant and private information about tourists from Europe.

No, not really. Got to restate what Gad said - if it nabs even one bad guy, it's already worth it.

The fact that the EC is collecting it is somewhat creepy, but I'm not unwilling to have a gander.

[Gaviani]

Originally posted by Malacasta
FFS stop inferring that all we're doing is complaining about the US. I've already said I'm fighting against the collection and use of such data in Australia.

It's not so much your statements as Kestra's habitual and intellectually shallow ripping on American officials/government that we take as indication that "complaining about the U.S." is going on. To wit, from Kestra's first post:

"I'm certain that American society will become a better place, if you all can just be paranoid about everything and everybody."

Other than particularly smug and critical (given that the argument "he was trying to raise awareness about American information gathering" has been eviscerated by the response that this was information ALREADY GATHERED BY THE EC IN THE FIRST PLACE), how else would you have us take that, Malacasta?

Anyways, we've gotten as far as we need to go in this thread.

Probably true. I did like, appreciate, and agree with your earlier statement that a disagreement over policies does not constitute a personal attack or a personal vendetta, and think that is something that bears reiteration most of the time. Problematically, your (in this case) intellectual ally, Kestra, does not behave in such a manner so as to be consistent with this meme; in fact, his repetitive attacks - and yes, they're precisely that, attacks - on what he perceives as faults in the American government and/or society tend to give those of us who are not quite so much in his ideological camp a presumption that the things he says are MEANT through that prism. In short, when you behave like an unreasonable, rabid anti-American often enough, you shouldn't be surprised when people default to assuming that's what you're doing - or read otherwise ambiguous posts in that light, Kestra.

You guys don't give a shit that the US is holding onto irrelevant and private information about tourists from Europe.
Good on ya.

Not really. I'm much more concerned about information that the U.S. government collects about Americans than I am about foreign nationals. I fall into the "right-wing libertarian" camp that you earlier mentioned, insomuch as I approach governmental requests for information with a very high level of scrutiny. I would be positively baffled if any nation-state asked me my sexual practices (politics being a bit different, as those, contrary to aforementioned stated positions in this thread, actually have something to do with behavior - that's a discussion for another time). I'm rather astonished the citizens of Europe went for such a measure. If they - or anyone else - has a problem with this, though, the EC would seem to me to be the political institution to lodge grievance with. An attempt to ham-handedly turn this into a forum by which to bitch about the American administration or make another tired complaint about "American paranoia" - not that I am speaking to you on this one, Malacasta - simply generates a rousing round of eye-rolling yawns.

[Gaviani]

Come to think of it, there's a saying, loosely bastardized off Churchill's statement on democracy, that I use often for this kind of situation, Malacasta: I distrust my government more than anything else on Earth - except for every other government.

[Kraxe]

Originally posted by Gaviani
I'm rather astonished the citizens of Europe went for such a measure. If they - or anyone else - has a problem with this, though, the EC would seem to me to be the political institution to lodge grievance with.

Despite being a part of Europe (all the countries that are), Europe itself is 'over there' when it comes to most things it does. People have a hard enough time demonstrating their displeasure and disagreement with domestic policy. Most people don't even seem to make the connection that what happens in Europe affects them. I would wager 99.9% of the entire population of Europe don't know who their Euro MP's are.

Yes they should take more interest if 'they' want to avoid crap like this being heaped upon them, but that just simply isn't happenning. To steal a Douglas Adams acronym, it's SEP.

It's a sad note that the only time people get involved in European legislation is when a tabloid picks up some new proposal and turns it into the last 'attack on our national pride', be it the banning of the 'great' British Sausage, or a law demanding that all bananas be the same shade of yellow. Utterly pathetic, and they've only got themselves to blame.