Scooter Libby sentence commuted by the president

[Jolen]

Where do you think the basis of society started? Families. First, before anything else, there was the family unit. You see this reflected in nature constantly in the highly complex social structures of primate units. These "families" are extremely hierarchal, much like our governments. You can read about it in history where entire "clans" revolved around the family unit.

Note, this is not the same as the 'Leave it to Beaver' family "standard" a portion of Americans believe when anyone brings up the family. I think the move from the extended family standard to the nuclear family standard is part of the reason for all of the "breakdowns of the family."

That being said, I'd like to drop comment on what the thread is actually about.

I think the President's mistake in this was commuting (hinting at a possible pardon) Libby's sentence this soon after the sentencing. This totally gives the left ammunition to increase their support with Hispanics by pointing to the fact that the right pleaded with the President for a pardon for Libby while refusing to support the immigration bill which would give amnesty to illegals.

I agree that alot of this situation is politically motivated but in the end it boils down to, did Libby perjure himself? Yes, he did therefore he must accept the consequences of his actions. I do not think his life is ruined by this due to the fact that he still has an incredible amount of support with a portion of the right. He may not be able to practice law, but he is far from being on his way to the unemployment line.

[Savaric]

Originally posted by Aristotle
It is not often I get a chance to say this and really, truly mean it.

Savaric, you are wrong.

Pardons and commutations do not "undermine" the system. They *ARE* the system. They are critical elements of our balance of power and checks and balances.

As I mentioned earlier, a long time ago I had heard of a plausible reason for the existence of federal pardons. I still haven't seen one in this thread. Ari if I'm to believe you you'll need to educate me as to how Presidential pardons are a critical element of our system of checks and balances.

Originally posted by Aristotle
No amount of temper tantrums will chance the fact that our system of checks and balances specifically makes this not an abuse of power, not a violation of the rule of law, and not an undermining of "the system."

Are you saying Presidential pardons cannot be abused simply because they are legal? Because that's how I'm reading it. Imagine Bush pardoning Jeffrey Skilling on his last day in office. He can do it- and easily. He doesn't need a reason. Would that be an abuse of power? It's well within the law to do so. Every President this country has seen and will continue to see is a human being, just like any judge, police officer or person on the street. They are all capable of discrimination, bias, corruption, deceit and playing sides. It's the human nature that none of us can get away from- and that's why a power like this is too much.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Snrrub
Can you justify that? How exactly is everything else based on the family unit? What are you including in the 'everything else' category?

Our entire civilization is based on the family unit. Our economy. Our governments. Our sense of self. Everything.

Originally posted by Snrrub

The breakdown of a family unit isn't going to cause galaxies to explode. I don't think it will cause the collapse of society, either.

Originally posted by Snrrub
In my opinion, most of our problems in society stem from poverty, lack of education, substance abuse, and as previously mentioned, bad parenting.

And guess what the biggest cause of the above problems is? Breakdowns in the family. I'm going to hold off on presenting the specific stats, because I know there are people here who will get offended and take certain parts personally (which is not how they should be taken). But there is a direct and extreme correlation between poverty, lack of education, drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, etc. and lacking a stable family environment.

In fact, that is the most reliable and consistent data point in all of those social woes.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Savaric
As I mentioned earlier, a long time ago I had heard of a plausible reason for the existence of federal pardons. I still haven't seen one in this thread. Ari if I'm to believe you you'll need to educate me as to how Presidential pardons are a critical element of our system of checks and balances.

Now you are saying something very different than what you originally said.

Do you want to argue that you think the Presidential pardon power should be removed? If so, have at it.

But as long as it exists, when a President uses it then that President is not "undermining the system" as you posited earlier. That IS the system.

Some people do not like the electoral college. They campaign to get rid of it and change the Presidential election to a popular vote. But it would be incorrect for them to say that every President chosen by the electoral college "undermines the system" and is not the President.

Originally posted by Savaric

Are you saying Presidential pardons cannot be abused simply because they are legal?

You need to be very careful with how you word things when you discuss legality and constitutionality. "Can be abused" and "abuse of power" are not the same thing.

Would it be abusive to pardon a mass murderer or perhaps, someone who traded with the enemy during a hostage crisis? Absolutely. Is it an "abuse of power"? No. Does it "undermine the system"? No. Is it a "violation of the law"? No.

[Rosuav]

Originally posted by Snrrub
Can you justify that? How exactly is everything else based on the family unit? What are you including in the 'everything else' category?

Sorry, I should have clarified. Ari posted basically the same as my view on this; every part of human-human relations can be derived to an element of intra-family relations. I didn't mean that the breakup of a family could lead to the breakup of an atom, a molecule, a planet, a star, or a galaxy, but it CAN lead to the breakup of a club, a nation, or a treaty between nations. Or rather, the same problems that lead to one can lead to the others.

[Savaric]

Originally posted by Aristotle
Now you are saying something very different than what you originally said.

Oh no no no, I've been arguing the federal pardon the entire time. I thought I had made clear on that but I guess not.

Originally posted by Aristotle
Would it be abusive to pardon a mass murderer ... Absolutely. Is it an "abuse of power"? No.

Okay. So pardoning a mass murderer is not an abuse of power, but it -is- abusive. So what exactly is it abusing?

Originally posted by Aristotle
...or perhaps, someone who traded with the enemy during a hostage crisis?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Clinton did some shady pardons as well. No big secret. There will be plenty more to come from future presidents, red and blue alike. Hence my argument on federal pardons. Also, the person you are referring to was a billoinaire represented by none other than Mr. Scooter Libby himself. Small world, hmm?

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Savaric
Also, the person you are referring to was a billoinaire represented by none other than Mr. Scooter Libby himself. Small world, hmm?

Well at least now I know you aren't fully reading my posts. I said that on page 1.

[kestra]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Clinton commuting the verdict of a hot-off-the-press trial.

You can bet your socks that Cheney pushed for this commuting.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by kestra
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Clinton commuting the verdict of a hot-off-the-press trial.

So what? By even raising this point you are admitting the whole thing, from the prosecution on up, was purely political.

Honestly, you don't even want to go down the road of stacking up Clinton's pardons against this.

Come on. You can do better than this.

[kestra]

I think the most important factor in the Libby commute is, how is this Bill Clinton's fault? :P

Just kidding!!

The other funny thing is now some Libby supporters/republicans are saying:"well, Clinton did it, so what's the big deal?"

It's funny that in this case, they're now comparing Bush to Clinton, while for the remaining 364 days of the year they're bashing him.