Bush More Dangerous to World Peace

[Maelgrim]

The Iraqi's are way worse off than they were before we toppled Saddam

I'm sorry, I can't agree with that. I won't bother going into the horrific things Hussein did to his own people, but I will make the point that with the ba'ath regime toppled, Iraqi hospitals can now purchase (Or be given) complex medical equipment which they were previously refused by sanctions. Children can now own video games. Engineering and construction companies can purchase more advanced machinery, furthering the capability of construction and infrastructure.

Why were these items denied previously? Because they could be reverse-engineered to develop weapons (Allegedly a PS1 makes for the workings of a wonderful guidance computer for a ballistic missile.)

But that's capitalism talking. Let's go into the very basic fact that with a constitution and a country under rule of law, a citizen can now receive a fair trial, can take his or her greivance before a judge and have it heard impartially according to law. I'm not going to suggest it's foolproof yet, but at least it's moving in the right direction.

Let's also look at the fact that you see a very, very small part of iraq in media footage. I have friends who have recently returned from being stationed in Iraq, who say that most of Iraq's major cities are flourishing cosmopolitan centers. The crumbling, burned adobes with gunfire ringing around are specific conflict areas. You don't see students attending university in baghdad. You don't see restaraunts and grocers trading with a smile. All you see is the ugly war part that the media shows you.

By taking the fight to them (inadvertantly, remember, because we went there to destroy wmd's and liberate the Iraqi people?) we're enflaming the muslim world

So, you're saying that the violent, intolerant, savage, primitive madmen who propogate hatred speak for the muslim world? I bloody well hope not, or we've got some moderates on these forums who have some 'splanin to do...

Nobody's inflaming the 'muslim world'. The best analogy I've found is that we've finally decided to get that nest of killer bees out of the roof. Of course that's going to piss them off. But it NEEDS to be done. Do you think that bending over and giving the insurgents and terrorists what they want will stop anything? Belive that and I've got a horseshoe shaped bridge over sydney harbor I'd like to sell you.

I admit, this whole business is not good in anyone's book, let alone the poor battlers who are dying over there, but let's face it, it's the least shitty option available.

[Jidoe]

Maelgrim,

I don't know how closely you follow Savaric's notes, but your responses show that not much. Savaric is a great advocate of the war against terrorism, only in this case, he thinks the war wasn't efficient (not that it wasn't justified) so the killer bees analogy is right in general, but doesn't fit here.

In my narrow view point, I can see the importance of the war, however, I can not fail to see how ineffective the fighting is right now. The problem in terrorism is because when you kill one terrorist, you've just earned a couple of new ones, so it has to be systematic, you must hit the heads of the terror groups and you must have good intelligence. My assumption here is that the intelligence in Iraq isn't very strong, and perhaps that is the weakest point of the fighting.

As for most Iraq being quiet and the fighting only happens in certain places - I sure can sympathize with that statement as my country has been a victim of this for so long now. But when you think about it in an objective perspective, suicide bombers are scary because you can never know when or where they will blow up and unlike your claim, they do blow up here and there, and it doesn't even have to be in a battlefield (it is most likely isn't). As an example, there is lots of fighting in the Gaza Strip and in the West Bank, but in the era of the suicide bombers, it was Tel Aviv and Jerusalem who suffered most.

[Savaric]

Originally posted by Jidoe
I can see the importance of the war, however, I can not fail to see how ineffective the fighting is right now.

This is the message I wanted to convey. We are not effectively neutralizing the problem in Iraq and I think we're only making it worse. Poor planning from the beginning is one reason and as far as solutions go I don't think there is one for Iraq. Just so I'm clear on my stance- pulling out is not an option. Everything will be for nothing if that happens and in the vacuum left behind the jihadists will claim victory and it will bolster their confidence to a rediculous level.

Originally posted by Maelgrim
So, you're saying that the violent, intolerant, savage, primitive madmen who propogate hatred speak for the muslim world?

You know I don't think that (or maybe you're trying to humor me). But if everywhere the U.S. goes, fighting and destruction follow, then these people will increasingly start to hear that message. Listen -- I hate that region. It's amazingly unstable and in my view a threat to the stability of the human race (I'm being serious). But we have to be careful here to avoid a chain reaction of violence. We need to be smart in how we deal with this issue because the strong arm isn't working. Now don't be warping my words to say, "Oh, Savaric wants to send a boquet of flowers to the terrorists!" Don't even think it. As far as Iraq goes I don't think we can attempt any other approaches, we've broken the china hutch so-to-speak and now we have to put it back together (Colin Powel said it I think). We're "locked" in and that's what I'm pissed about because our government screwed up. Yes- they absolutely should have foreseen the current state of Iraq while it was in the planning stages. This was a critical error and Darion made a good post on how Iraq should have been handled from the start.

Solutions for the future? For starters I think they love our way of life. They love our tv and our celebrities and our music and our freedoms. That's why the clerics hate the U.S. and spread their propaganda, because we infect them with our way of life. The biggest threat to Islam is our very own fast food culture- and that's what we need to be using on them. We need to be clever and implant our culture into that region. Shit, let the military take a break and hire corporate America to handle the war on terror.

[xaxer]

Shit, let the military take a break and hire corporate America to handle the war on terror.


World peace one happy meal at a time!

[kestra]

World peace one happy meal at a time!

would you like to supersize that?

[Maelgrim]

Originally posted by kestra
would you like to supersize that?

Interestingly enough, there has never been a shooting war between countries who both have one or more Mcdonalds.

Makes you think, huh.