Some success on illegals

[Savaric]

I'm open to immigration too, but I want a closed border. Actually a sealed and quarantined border. I don't want 15 million unknown people living in my country and that's what's happening.

The real point is our government can fix this and it has an obligation to do so. What happened in this town could be done on the national level.

Are illegals really helping our economy or are they hurting it? I can't see how they are helping it. They don't pay taxes, their money goes back to mexico, they eat up space in our jails and hospitals and I don't think they give a shit about America other than for it's affluence. But are we really that well off? Last figure I recall almost half of all Americans can't afford their health insurance. I'm not so sure. I hope this doesn't come out as a narrow column...

It didn't come out narrow. Belay my last.

[Damieux]

Q&A: Illegal Immigrants and the U.S. Economy

by Adam Davidson

NPR.org, March 30, 2006 · Nearly 12 million illegal immigrants are estimated to be living in the United States. The vast majority work in low-skill, low-wage jobs. More than half work in construction, manufacturing or leisure and hospitality.

Advocates on both sides of the immigration debate predict dramatic change if illegal immigration is drastically curtailed. Supporters of a crackdown argue that the U.S. economy would benefit if illegal immigrants were to leave, because U.S. employers would be forced to raise wages to attract American workers. Critics of this approach say the loss of illegal immigrants would stall the U.S. economy, saying undocumented workers do many jobs few native-born Americans will do. NPR business correspondent Adam Davidson explores the issue.

Q: What is the impact of illegal immigration on wages in the United States?

Well, for an individual, it depends on where you are, what kind of work you do and whether you have skills that illegal immigrants don't. But overall, illegal immigrants don't have a big impact on U.S. wage rates. The most respected recent studies show that most Americans would notice little difference in their paychecks if illegal immigrants suddenly disappeared from the United States. That's because most Americans don't directly compete with illegal immigrants for jobs.

There is one group of Americans that would benefit from a dramatic cut in illegal immigration: high-school dropouts. Most economists agree that the wages of low-skill high-school dropouts are suppressed by somewhere between 3 percent and 8 percent because of competition from immigrants, both legal and illegal. Economists speculate that for the average high-school dropout, that would mean about a $25 a week raise if there were no job competition from immigrants.

Illegal immigrants seem to have very little impact on unemployment rates. Undocumented workers certainly do take jobs that would otherwise go to legal workers. But undocumented workers also create demand that leads to new jobs. They buy food and cars and cell phones, they get haircuts and go to restaurants. On average, there is close to no net impact on the unemployment rate.

Q: But what about wages in cities like Los Angeles and Chicago, where there are many illegal immigrants? And what about wages in industries that use many undocumented workers?

More than a third of illegal immigrants live in just three cities: New York, Los Angeles and Chicago. But even in these places, economists believe there is minimal impact on wages. That's because many Americans from other parts of the country choose not to move to areas with large numbers of immigrants, because they want to avoid competing for jobs.

Even in industries with high concentrations of illegal workers -- such as construction, restaurants and some parts of agriculture -- the impact isn't as great as many people think. If there weren't illegal immigrants working in construction in places like Chicago and Miami, then demand for legal workers would go up, which would mean wages would rise. But very quickly, legal workers from other parts of the country would move to those cities, and wages would go back down. The net impact on wages would be relatively modest.

Illegal immigrants do often take some of the country's least attractive jobs, such as in meat packing and agriculture. If there were no undocumented workers available for those jobs, employers would likely invest in new technology, replacing workers with automation.

Q: How do illegal immigrants affect the overall U.S. economy?

Illegal immigration has both negative and positive impacts on different parts of the economy. As noted above, wages for low-skilled workers go down. But that means the rest of America benefits by paying lower prices for things like restaurant meals, agricultural produce and construction. Another negative impact is on government expenditures. Since undocumented workers generally don't pay income taxes but do use schools and other government services, they are seen as a drain on government spending.

There are places in the United States where illegal immigration has big effects (both positive and negative). But economists generally believe that when averaged over the whole economy, the effect is a small net positive. Harvard's George Borjas says the average American's wealth is increased by less than 1 percent because of illegal immigration.

The economic impact of illegal immigration is far smaller than other trends in the economy, such as the increasing use of automation in manufacturing or the growth in global trade. Those two factors have a much bigger impact on wages, prices and the health of the U.S. economy.

By the Numbers

• By increasing the labor supply between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of U.S.-born men by an estimated $1,700, or roughly 4 percent.

• Among those born in the United States who did not graduate from high school -- roughly the poorest one-tenth of the work force -- the estimated impact was even larger, reducing wages by 7.4 percent.

• The negative effect on U.S.-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites, because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.

• The reduction in earnings occurs regardless of whether the immigrants are legal or illegal, permanent or temporary. It is the presence of additional workers that reduces wages, not their legal status.

Source: Jorge Borgas, Kennedy School of Government at Harvard

Link to NPR Article

[Savaric]

Rofl, love the part about highschool dropouts in the same bracket as illegals for work. Our dropouts deserve those jobs a lot more than the illegal aliens that should not be here. Because they're citizens, that's why.

"Since undocumented workers generally don't pay income taxes but do use schools and other government services, they are seen as a drain on government spending."

I like how he adds "generally" to smooth it over a bit. I'll fix it for effect, "Since undocumented workers don't pay income taxes but do use schools and other government services ... " There, better.

I also found it interesting that Chicago is a hot spot for illegal residency.

I would also like to see a percentage or number of illegal aliens in our prison system.

Maybe this article is on the money, but it seems a bit dumbed-down to me. Bit of hedging going on as well- author doesn't get his feet wet. I mean according to this article (as it seems to me)illegal aliens are having very little effect on America in terms of negative impact. I'm not ready to buy into that. I'd like to see more numbers and statistics as well, like how much it's costing our healthcare and education.


Thanks Damieux. (dam u!) lol

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Savaric
Rofl, love the part about highschool dropouts in the same bracket as illegals for work. Our dropouts deserve those jobs a lot more than the illegal aliens that should not be here. Because they're citizens, that's why.

I disagree. I think they deserve it less because they had a golden opportunity handed to them (a free education) and they flushed it. They won the birth lottery just by being born in the USA in the first place. Then they were offered a free education that would practically guarantee them a job above minimum wage if they could just graduate from high school. If they blew it for whatever pathetic excuse they have, then they certainly are not more deserving than people who most likely risked their lives to get here and battle for the American Dream.

Originally posted by Savaric

I like how he adds "generally" to smooth it over a bit.

I don't think he was "smoothing it over" at all. He was stating it simply and accurately without using an absolute in case there are crazy exceptions in some situations. For example, Florida doesn't even have an income tax. They do all of their taxation through sales tax and other similar taxes. So illegals living in Florida pay the same state taxes as everyone else. Yes, its not an income tax, but income tax is only the tip of the iceberg.

Heck, generally Americans don't pay taxes either. The overwhelming majority of taxes are paid by the top 20%. The bottom 50% pay almost nothing in income taxes.

Originally posted by Savaric
I would also like to see a percentage or number of illegal aliens in our prison system.

I'd like to see that percentage compared to the percentage of people in the prison system for drug related crimes. Our problem with crime in the US is mostly our failed and idiotic treatment of drug addiction. The last time I read up on the issue, over 60% of prisoners in the US were in prison for some type of drug related non-violent crime. (My apologies for pulling a stat from distant memory. If I am off in the exact amount, please forgive me.)

Originally posted by Savaric

I mean according to this article (as it seems to me)illegal aliens are having very little effect on America in terms of negative impact. I'm not ready to buy into that.

How can you not? Considering the fact that over the last 20 years the American economy has continually boomed like crazy, it would be pretty foolish to suggest that illegal immigration is damaging our economy.

[Savaric]

Originally posted by Aristotle
I disagree. I think they deserve it less because they had a golden opportunity handed to them (a free education) and they flushed it.

Another way to look at it. I reluctantly agree, lol.

Originally posted by Aristotle
I'd like to see that percentage compared to the percentage of people in the prison system for drug related crimes. Our problem with crime in the US is mostly our failed and idiotic treatment of drug addiction. The last time I read up on the issue, over 60% of prisoners in the US were in prison for some type of drug related non-violent crime.

They probably shouldn't have flushed their oppurtunity to grab that free education, and if they did, should have used it to get a job instead of selling drugs. There's probably a very strong connection between highschool dropouts and drug users/dealers. If those illegals didn't beat them out of the job then maybe they wouldn't be in jail on drug related convictions (smirk).

I don't defend drug dealers, but I will speak up for rehabilitating drug users. And since I don't know which dominates our prison system- drug dealers or drugs users- I'll leave it at that (but my haruspicy is telling me it's career drug dealers).

There is nothing in the article that gives concrete evidence of what illegal immigration is really costing the U.S. economy. In fact, I don't even know who's answering the questions. Oh wait, here is something:

"By increasing the labor supply between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of U.S.-born men by an estimated $1,700, or roughly 4 percent."

So I'm assuming at the year 2000 the average American male was reduced in pay by $1700. I'm sure that has gone up a bit in 6 years. Let's say it affects only one million American males. That's about 1.7 billion dollars annually being taken out of American pockets. That sounds like a big number to me. I think there's a lot more damage going on than certain entities would like you to believe. Also about that number. Seventeen-hundred is 4% of 42,500- does the average blue-collar American really make that much? Maybe they're trying to smooth it over again (pfff- it's only 4%).

Yes, we're a rich country, but our streets aren't paved with gold either. There are plenty of Americans struggling to make ends meet right in our own backyard.