the convenience of religion

[Katidyd]

While I believe there are genuine cases of people who truely are devoted, from some experience here and there I'm convinced to the extreme vast majority of people religion is a moment of convenience.

Just last week I was at a grandfather's funeral. According to our old tradition, the funeral last 3 days and 3 nights non-stop - from Friday night to Monday morning. The continuous work and vigil is excruciating. During the Sunday morning a full 1/3 of the relatives who were there as cooks had to go to church. I've known this for a long time but it is only now that I've actually witness it. A granddaughter said at the table she's considering converting to christianity to avoid so much work.

Our tradition always call on relatives to help/celebrate in marriages, our versions of baptism and exorcism, or just goodwill gathering. The purpose is to keep the family bonds strong. These things usually take up a whole day and requires the participant of many relatives - more relatives coming means less workload. Did I mention the average is one gathering per month throughout the whole extended family clan? One of my sister converted, she doesnt come to any of the gatherings. Their new way is to go to church - where they are constantly nagged to join the membership which means paying collections - they havent joined yet. It is an easier way of life I suppose, replacing time, effort and family closeness with coins - that's the life of growing up in a fast paced world. *sigh*

[Savaric]

I'm not very fond of religions. Islam is self-explanatory. Christianity is absolutely a religion of convenience, coined perfectly. People go to church once a sunday, coming back feeling good about themselves and that they've done a great service or some shit. The fact that so many "christians" live in relative wealth, and I mean a 2 car garage, nice car, nice suburban house, all the trimmings, with people literally starving to death and being subjected to pain and suffering in our lifetime. It's a joke. Go to church every sunday, give to the collections, feel good, yay, your soul is going to heaven. I have personal experiences on well-off christian acquaintences but I won't go into it.

Now I don't think Jesus would approve of christians living comfortably while other humans suffer -- and there is a LOT of suffering going on in this world. I also know that was not his message, but you know man has a way of bending things to suit his desires. I also think religion has a lot to do with psychology. I've always dreamed of studying psychology and theology and writing the greatest book ever -- the one that exposes religion and critically analyzes it for what it really is, and what it has really done for the human race as a whole. Haha! Never happen though.

I like what religion attempts to do, create morals and good codes to structure ones self by, but like communism, it just doesn't pan out the way it's supposed to. It's harmed the human species far more than it has helped, imho. People need to believe in themselves and our own abilities as a whole. The feats Jesus pulled, divine or not, are starting to fumble compared to the things we're doing today.

If there is a god I don't think any religion man has created even comes close to grappling with what it really is.

And let's not forget the period in time when religion did hold sway. They were called the "dark ages".

[Rosuav]

Originally posted by Savaric
Go to church every sunday, give to the collections, feel good, yay, your soul is going to heaven.
...
Now I don't think Jesus would approve of christians living comfortably while other humans suffer -- ...

Simply going to church doesn't make you a true Christian any more than going to court now and then makes you a barrister. Jesus made some very clear statements about what it means to be a Christian - and while it doesn't (necessarily) mean we may not live comfortably while there is any suffering in the world, it DOES mean a number of other things.

I like what religion attempts to do, create morals and good codes to structure ones self by, but like communism, it just doesn't pan out the way it's supposed to.

Christians are actually the only people who can truly make communism work. (Parse that one for a bit!) There are fallible people everywhere, and no scheme is going to be perfect. Communism tends to produce people who bludge and take all the handouts they can get without giving anything in return. Capitalism can breed people who pull financial strings to get whatever they want, even if it means paupering other people. Atheism leaves some people devoid of purpose, bored and looking to commit suicide. Christianity can produce hypocrits who go through the motions without any hint of sincerity (actually, hypocrisy is prevalent everywhere).

I'd like to make a distinction here between "a religion" such as Christianity, Islam, Buddism, etc - an entity with some structure, usually a hierarchy, a holy book of some sort, and so on - and "your religion" which is your personal set of beliefs about where we come from, what happens when we die, and what our purpose is. For the sake of avoiding confusion, I'll call the first a Creed, and the second a Worldview.

Every creed is the creation of some person or group, and may suffer from the limitations of their understanding. That's why the Roman Catholic church didn't remain the only creed in Christendom. A creed is supposed to answer questions of who God is, how he expects people to live, and so on. This is where this statement of Savaric's fits in:

If there is a god I don't think any religion man has created even comes close to grappling with what it really is.

Creeds are all imperfect.

Your worldview is your own. Generally, the teachings of your creed will influence your worldview significantly, but there is nothing strange about having slightly different worldviews within a single church.

Note that everyone has a worldview. Unless you are a brainless and thoughtless entity, you will be able to answer questions like: "What happens when you die?" (that's the end of you? you get reincarnated?) or "What's the most important thing to do in life?" (be happy? help other people? do something that you get remembered for?). The answers to all those sorts of questions is your worldview - your religion.

The feats Jesus pulled, divine or not, are starting to fumble compared to the things we're doing today.

Well, we can save people from death, but modern science still has a pretty poor track record with actually restoring people to life, four days after they died.

And let's not forget the period in time when religion did hold sway. They were called the "dark ages".

This again is a creed that had a lot of power. And it was an imperfect one - that's what the Reformation was all about (a number of men tried to fix what was wrong in the established church, others in the church resisted change because stability is comfortable, so they went off and started their own churches).

[Solubynn]

I'm going to jump in this thread with the hopes of getting a decent theological/philosophical discussion out of it.

Originally posted by Savaric
I'm not very fond of religions. Islam is self-explanatory. Christianity is absolutely a religion of convenience, coined perfectly. People go to church once a sunday, coming back feeling good about themselves and that they've done a great service or some shit. The fact that so many "christians" live in relative wealth, and I mean a 2 car garage, nice car, nice suburban house, all the trimmings, with people literally starving to death and being subjected to pain and suffering in our lifetime. It's a joke. Go to church every sunday, give to the collections, feel good, yay, your soul is going to heaven. I have personal experiences on well-off christian acquaintences but I won't go into it.

Now I don't think Jesus would approve of christians living comfortably while other humans suffer -- and there is a LOT of suffering going on in this world. I also know that was not his message, but you know man has a way of bending things to suit his desires.

You're right. Jesus and none of the messengers would approve to this. However, Katidyd said something interesting in keeping your family bonds in exchange of spending money in a fast paced world. Which is interesting, because the Qur'an tells a couple things about the minor signs of the end of times approaching that are worth mentioning:

- The time will come where holding on to your faith will be like holding on to flaming coal. That means that as time goes by, people will find it difficult to keep their faith in the middle of so many temptations. It's fairly difficult to live like Muhammad, Jesus or Moses when everybody in your neighborhood has a car, a house and has to spend a lot of money to get your kids a decent education. Your kid might end up just a piece in some big machine. In order to get the money, you, yourself, have to work as a pulley in a machine and specialize REALLY well one specific part of it to succeed (and sometimes survive), which leaves you very little time to pay attention to the true core values of religion, sometimes driving you to do minor or major acts that are morally and ethically "wrong" (dirty-competition comes to mind as the first major thing done in a working environment). Long ago, during the time of the Islamic world, a man had the time to be proficient in Litterature, Biology and Astronomy, all at once, and even write BOOKS to prove it. Also, to get back to Katidyd's comment, keeping the bonds with your family is a fundamental duty in Islam, and I suspect it is in some religions. This is an example of how hard it is to keep track of one of your religious duties when you have to move away to get a better job, and so get more money/a better career, which leads to more money, to be able to survive or be a step closer to own the stuff you've seen around you and have been craving to get for a while.

I'm sure I've borrowed this "piece in big machine" metaphor from some political type of people, and you probably know who they are (I'm going to guess communits cos they're against capitalism, but I really have no clue), but just a sidenote, I have no real political orientation so please don't affiliate me with any.

- The second thing worth mentioning is the fast paced world we live in. This is a minor sign of the end of times as mentioned in the Qur'an. People start losing track of time, not feeling the days pass. It's funny you mentioned this, cos no longer than two three hours ago, some of my friends were just reliving old memories and all they kept saying is how much time was running by so fast. Granted that this is the 1000 000th time I get to hear that phrase in general, the way they kept saying and repeating it pushed me to write it down here. Yes, time flies by so fast, and you can't do all of what was mentioned in the previous point as well as keep your family bonds actively working nicely. While this doesn't necessarily have to be the case for most people, the ratio of its occurence has been growing for quite a long time now (at least in the West).

Originally posted by Savaric
I also think religion has a lot to do with psychology. I've always dreamed of studying psychology and theology and writing the greatest book ever -- the one that exposes religion and critically analyzes it for what it really is, and what it has really done for the human race as a whole. Haha! Never happen though.

As much as this may sound odd, I actually hope you pursue that dream.

Originally posted by Savaric
If there is a god I don't think any religion man has created even comes close to grappling with what it really is.

That's true, but is that the purpose of religion? If there's a god and wanted us to know what it really was, it would've made itself visible and available for FAQs. Religions wouldn't really be needed.

Originally posted by Savaric
And let's not forget the period in time when religion did hold sway. They were called the "dark ages".

Go figure who called them that

Originally posted by Rosuav
Well, we can save people from death, but modern science still has a pretty poor track record with actually restoring people to life, four days after they died.

You forgot to mention restoring eyesight to hopeless blind cases and instoring life into a pigeon made of mud. Perhaps the version of the miracles of Jesus differ from Islam to Christianity, but Muslims are taught that he had some really neat miracles of his own.

The trick is that modern science couldn't do half what Jesus could do. Only special cases of blindness can be cured under very specific circumstances. You'll tell me that the way he was born can be done in-vitro, but then again this can't have existed 2000 years ago. But for the sake of keeping this fair, I'll take you further.

Have you ever wondered why the prophets could do the tricks they could?

Moses was granted the gift of magic during a time where magic was used to scare people and hold authority over them. That's how he defeated the Pharaonic priests, who were masters of illusion (don't tell me it's not there, we've all seen David Cooperfield at least pull one out, as much of a bad example that might be) and that's how he "split the sea into two".

Jesus was granted the abilities stated above during a period of time where medicine was a fastly growing science. Not to mention that his birth was a medical miracle in itself.

Mohammad was granted the miracle of Qur'an during the time where litterature in the Arabic Peninsula was in an uprise. The unchallenged consistency and optimized wording of the Qur'an made it impossible for anyone during that time, or even after, capable of replicating the meaning of any verse of the Qur'an using the same number of words, much less using a smaller number of words... words that were spoken by an illeterate Prophet. And that's not it regarding the text itself... there are so many miracles related to the wording (which involve mathematical constraints) only that they are too many to list here, and this discussion is more about religion in general.

And with that, I conclude my first participation.

[Maelgrim]

Just last week I was at a grandfather's funeral. According to our old tradition, the funeral last 3 days and 3 nights non-stop - from Friday night to Monday morning.

I don't mean to detract from the conversation, but what culture is this, Kati? I've never heard of this tradition before. (I'm not making a challenge here, I'm genuinely curious! )

Whilst I agree that many people do use their religion as a crutch or a convenience, (Suicide bombers, anyone?) there are more who do try their best to live according to the prime tenets of their belief structures.

As Rosuav said, the moment you introduce man into the equation, the whole thing fucks up. It's not the fault of God (Who is by nature infalliable), but of the humans who don't get it, or abuse it for their own causes.

[Rosuav]

Originally posted by Solubynn
Moses was granted the gift of magic during a time where magic was used to scare people and hold authority over them. That's how he defeated the Pharaonic priests, who were masters of illusion (don't tell me it's not there, we've all seen David Cooperfield at least pull one out, as much of a bad example that might be) and that's how he "split the sea into two".

I don't know whether the snake matter was illusion or not, but Moses' snake ate up the magicians' snakes. The parting of the Red Sea was caused by a strong east wind - don't know what sort of thing you'd call that.

On the subject of magic, it is said that any technology, sufficiently advanced, will be indistinguishable from magic. (Ergo, every technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.) So, are the Mages and Sorcs in Thresh just masters of technology?

[Solubynn]

Originally posted by Rosuav
I don't know whether the snake matter was illusion or not, but Moses' snake ate up the magicians' snakes.

That's the thing. Their sticks only gave the illusion to be snakes, whereas Moses' stick really turned into a snake, eating up all the other sticks. That makes his magic more powerful than the one wielded by the egyptian priests during that time. Or at least that's the version I'm aware of.

[Maelgrim]

Why moses didn't cast Aetherial fist and just wtfpwn the lot of them I'll never know.

[Quotox]

Originally posted by Maelgrim
Why moses didn't cast Aetherial fist and just wtfpwn the lot of them I'll never know.

He did. In exodus... First, God held the prusers back with a wall of fire. Moses called upon God to part the Red Sea and then drowned them all. Its a watery fist, but I'll take some of that old testament wrath on my side any day.