Originally posted by Aristotle
1) You don't get to just magically "separate" from this argument people who don't work hard, waste their money on booze, drugs, or cigarettes, or any other 90000 reasons people fail to get ahead in life.

It is a FACT of our society that if you want to get ahead, you can.

If you think someone else owes you a duty to help you get ahead, you are mistaken. If you think the government has a duty to guarantee you better wages than you can earn on your own merits, you are not only delusional, but doomed to fail.
Well, all this is true but my own personal position on them has continually been union based, and I have continually stated I am not interested in social programs to pay people who demonstrate a lack of initiative or personal responsibility. I Do have a good deal of sympathy who sink into depression due to work issues, but here again I think any government help offered would have to be outcome oriented, subject to being cut off if minimum standards were not kept up.

Unions though are specifically all about working people who HAVE jobs and all about a solution that is uniquely non-governmental, other than the protection of the right to organize at all.