Originally posted by Lokrian
That's what happens even with unions.
No it doesn't. If you own a grocery store, and you do not employ union labor, unions from OTHER grocery stores will stand outside your store and protest- even if your own employees are perfectly fine not having a union take a percentage of their paychecks. I've seen it with my own eyes in 3 different states. That is not people being able to choose to take a job or not. That is unions engaging in outright bullying and strong arming OTHER businesses.


Originally posted by Lokrian
Collective bargaining is necessary to offset collective ownership.
No it isn't. It is a leechlike drain on efficiency. The union bosses have no interest in harmony. If things go smoothly, they don't feel useful and fear workers will want to pay less in dues. They deliberately foment dissent and repeatedly make outrageous demands. So, businesses leave. Then the workers are out of a job, and the unions bosses move on to some other town and business and start over. Unions leaders MUST create strife in order to justify their existence and the dues they drain from the workers' paychecks.


Originally posted by Lokrian
I imagine the smiling faces of slave laborers in India that you saw were artificially taken and presented to you in that light by organizations with something to gain from making people feel good that their clothes are being made by people with living standards that approach stone-age levels in some cases.

It’s not enough. It is downright evil.
The reason this is clearly false propaganda is pure, cold self-interest.

Aside from the fact that most human beings, even "Horrible Evil CEOs", would not happily engage in slavery, there is no financial incentive to treat people in the manner you claim they are treated. In fact, there is a financial disincentive. People who are treated like slaves are not as productive. That is, after all, the main reason slavery died out as an economic entity in the western world. It just isn't efficient.

It is arrogant and ignorant to act like the Knight in Shining Armor for these third world workers when they are not forced to work at these factories, and they are in fact better off than before the factory was built there.

It reminds me of a quote from Full Metal Jacket: "Pvt. Eightball: I guess they'd rather be alive than free. Poor dumb bastards."

Americans love to think we know what people in other countries want for themselves. We are rarely correct. If those people chose to work in those factories, maybe, just MAYBE, they had enough brains to make a choice that was best for them. Insiting you know better than they do what is best for them is paternalistic and insulting.

Furthermore, it is not evil to give someone a job that pays 10-100 times what their last job paid (if they had a job at all).


Originally posted by Lokrian
We need laws that put a requirement of measurable improvement in living standards in these nations in order to maintain low tariffs.
That's always the answer for the loony left. "Well, we abused the business owners here and they ran away, so lets try and get other countries to pass some stupid laws like the ones we passed in the US. Hey, if we get all countries to treat business owners like shit, maybe they won't have anywhere to run! We already ruined our country, lets ruin theirs too!"

That is just crazy. You make the domestic environment inhospitable to business owners, and decide the best course of action is to try to make it equally crappy elsewhere in hopes of luring them back?

That is like a hotel that loses its customers because they stop cleaning the sheets lobbying for a law that bans all hotels from cleaning their sheets. Ever read Harrison Bergeron?


Originally posted by Lokrian
All the hard work? All the hard work of fronting some excess cash to see if something will make money? How hard do you honestly think it is to see when something is looking profitable and go ahead and start a business? And if the business flops, do the employees not lose as well? Of course they do. No one goes to get a job doing something they think is not going to make money in the long term.
Is that really what you think is involved in starting a business? Do you realize that right there, in that one paragraph, you completely divorced yourself from any possible hint of credibility on this entire issue?

Yes, all the hard work. The months or years of 80+ hour weeks with no overtime (often no pay at all), no benefits, no vacations, no sick days, to get a business running. The risk of personal savings (that could result in total financial ruin if the business fails). The sleepless nights lying awake thinking about what you can do to try and make the business successful. The complete and total sacrifice of leisure time for months or years on end. When I started my business, it was 7 years before I was able to take a vacation. The overwhelming majority of new businesses are founded by individuals, with their own money, and their own blood, sweat, and tears to make it work.

I'll give you an example that some Threshers are familiar with. FunkyLAN, the place where we had our ThreshCon event, is a business owned by 3 guys who live here in town. They invested tens of thousands of dollars of their own money on computers, networking equipment, furniture, etc. They have full time jobs they work during the day. At night, they work at FunkyLAN for (so far) no pay. They work 7 days a week, including holidays. Some nights, they work all night so they can host lock-in events. After more than a year, they only occasionally break even for the month. When they do not break even for the month, the owners have to dip into their own savings to cover the bills. They are not even close to recouping their initial investment. They have a handful of employees who get to have a fun job thanks to the entreprenurial spirit of the business owners. This story is not rare, it is typical of the hardships many business owners endure to get their business going.

It is truly insulting that you refuse to acknowledge the real engine of economic growth in our country. People taking risks, working their butts off, and starting businesses is what creates jobs and opportunities for other people.

How important are small businesses to the U.S. economy?

http://www.sba.gov/advo/stats/sbfaq.html

Small businesses:
  • Employ more than half of all private sector employees
  • Generate 60 to 80 percent of net new jobs annually.

One third of all small businesses fail in the first 2 years, and half fail in the first 4 years. The employee just moves on and gets another job. The business founder/owner often has to face the loss of his/her savings and the crushing agony of personal failure. Some have to face bankruptcy which haunts them for 14+ years. After a couple years of killing themselves, they are left with nothing to show for it, no savings, and very likely a huge pile of debt.

Now, keep in mind that for every successful business venture, that same entrepreneur most likely endured numerous prior failures.

Your total lack of respect and admiration for people who start businesses is both shocking and dismaying. These people are the engines of growth in the US. They are the backbone of our economy. Without them, we have absolutely NOTHING.


Originally posted by Lokrian
I wish you had some idea how it sounds to a LOT of people when you complain how unfair it is that the bottom 50%, fully HALF of ALL Americans, are only making 14% of all the income there is, and yet you begrudge them a lower tax percentage. This is what fuels the class warfare - the utter lack of concern about gross inequalities.
Please stop with the straw men. I did not say it was unfair that the bottom 50% only pays 4% of the taxes. I provided actual statistics that show people in the top 50% pay a higher percentage of taxes than the percentage of income they earn. Thus, they are clearly carrying the bottom 50%. Maybe the bottom 50% should appreciate that instead of demonizing "the rich."

By the way, that top 50% is everyone who makes more than $16,108. That is hardly "rich."

The only inequality that exists is one that favors the bottom 50%. They earn 14% of the income and pay 4% of the taxes. They are being CARRIED by the top 50%. Someone else is paying their way. Most of this bottom 50% is also drawing benefits from the government that are paid for by the top 50%. But lets just pretend that doesn't exist, right?

The reason the top 50% makes 86.19% if the income is becasue they work harder and they care about making responsible choices. They put education and hard work above other frivolities. Do you really want to argue it is a herculean task to get a job that earns $16,108 per year? That is approximately $8 an hour (assuming 2 weeks of vacation).

Here's the thing. A lot of people are happy not working hard and thus not making a lot of money. That is fine. That is their choice. Thankfully, most people who make this decision understand and accept that it was truly their choice. To choose not to care about your education, or not to work hard, and then also complain that you are not in the top 50% income wise is just clueless and ignorant.


Originally posted by Lokrian
I make a reasonable living, and I have never been a member of a Union. I am just of the opinion that workers deserve a healthy lifestyle.
They don't "deserve" anything. They get what they are willing to WORK FOR- nothing more, nothing less.

Frankly, if they show as little appreciation as you have in this thread for the person(s) who created the business and the job, they deserve very little.