US to demand passports of Canadian travelers

[Aristotle]

There are some security measures that are asinine, and some that make sense. There are some that are the result of paranoia, and some that are the result of logic.

This sounds like one of the good ones.

The reality is that Canada is outrageously liberal in who it allows to enter its country. This is a problem.

Karahd said this seemed like a "trust issue." I do not think this has anything to do with what America thinks a Canadian would do. The problem is a malevolent individual using Canada as an easy way to get into the US to do harm.

The only way to guard against that is to have more stringent border measures for all people coming from Canada.

To repeat, this has nothing to do with making things harder or being less trustworthy of Canadian citizens. The purpose is to protect against non-Canadians who use Canada as an easy way to gain access to the US.

[Aristotle]

Karahd, I read this today and found it interesting. It supports your disagreement with the policy of checking passports:

http://boortz.com/nuze/200504/04062005.html

TIGHTENING THE BORDER

This is a complete joke. In order to somehow combat terrorism, rules are being revised and now passports are going to be required to re-enter the United States from Canada, Mexico, Panama and Bermuda by 2008. Right now, rules require only that a government-issued photo ID (like a driver's license) be required to come back from those countries. So what difference is this going to make?

Absolutely none. Other than being a huge boon to companies that take passport pictures and creating long lines at the post office, this won't stop terrorism. Why? Well, for instance...remember all of the 9/11 hijackers? They had passports. Fat lot of good that did, huh?

And what difference will requiring a passport to come back into the U.S. from Mexico matter when illegal aliens can walk right across the border by the hundreds of thousands every year? Unless and until we really tighten the border and start rounding up illegals and sending them back, border security will be a joke.

I knew the 9/11 terrorists had drivers licenses, but didn't know they had bogus passports as well.

One of the main reasons I don't support the checking of ID when you board a plane is that it does nothing to add security. All it does is fatten the wallets of the airlines because it makes it impossible for someone to sell their plane ticket to someone else if they are unable or unwilling to use it themselves. Checking ID does nothing since IDs are so easy to fake.

If I'm against that, then to be intellectually consistent I guess I have to be against this as well. Thus I need to reverse my original opinion on the matter.

[Gadiantor]

Originally posted by Aristotle
Checking ID does nothing since IDs are so easy to fake.

Fake passports will be big business now! Get in on the ground floor while you still can!

No matter what you do to increase security there will be a way around it. The goal is to make a target less attractive to a criminal or terrorist. Criminals and terrorists will find the softest targets they can. A softer target takes less planning, fewer resources, and gives a higher chance of success to the criminal or terrorist. You'll never stop crime or terrorism, but you can try to be a less attractive target than someone else.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Gadiantor
The goal is to make a target less attractive to a criminal or terrorist.

How in the heck is that the goal?

Make everything on your country valueless so a terrorist doesn't consider it worth destroying?

I think the goal is kill enough of the terrorists so THEY are afraid to even try to mess with you.

When you visit any attack back on them a million fold, it stops. It stops either because not enough of them are alive to do anything, or the few who are alive are too terrified to try.

[Gadiantor]

Originally posted by Aristotle
How in the heck is that the goal?

Make everything on your country valueless so a terrorist doesn't consider it worth destroying?

You don't decrease the value of the target, you increase the cost of attacking it. You make it more difficult and therefore more costly to attack the target. Killing those responsible for the attack definitely increase the potential cost of future attacks, so that could be considered part of the strategy.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Gadiantor
You don't decrease the value of the target, you increase the cost of attacking it. You make it more difficult and therefore more costly to attack the target. Killing those responsible for the attack definitely increase the potential cost of future attacks, so that could be considered part of the strategy.

Thank for you for further explaining your position. I agree with your position as elaborated upon.

Anyway, back on topic, I still do not see this move as demonstrative of a lack of trust in Canada. I do not think anyone in Canada should see it thusly.

It is just an attempt at securing our border (especially since Canada is exceptionally lax about entry to their country).

When analyzing it in light of similarly pointless airline security measures, it does not seem like it will accomplish much.

[Khirmint]

Couple of interesting points:

The one time I've crossed into the US on the ground with 5 people in a van we didn't have to show a single piece of ID.

Of the times I've travelled home from a T-Con, I've not had to display a single piece of ID until I got home, twice (damn customs). I believe those trips each had a single stop over in the US to boot. Of all the times I've travelled to the states with a canadian stop-over, I've always had to show my ID when collecting my ticket and before boarding the plane.

Though, on my last business trip into the states while carrying a server packed into my suitcase, I did get to go through two "random" searches on the way there. Once in Canada and once in the States.

Not exactly a wealth of experiences, but those of you that cross the border/travel more often, do you get similar results?

I prefer to see a more open environment between the US and Canada. Given how easy it is to slip across the border, what difference does it really make? How much of the border is actually patrolled?

I'm pretty sure that you won't get into either country from abroad without a passport. So, even if a terrorist gets into Canada, they're most likely going to have a passport with them, no? The only people that are really going to be affected then, are the ones that have to lug around a passport with them instead of two pieces of ID.

[Aristotle]

On the general note of checking IDs and air travel security, this is good news:

Air Security Agency Faces Reduced Role

The Transportation Security Administration, once the flagship agency in the nation's $20 billion effort to protect air travelers, is now targeted for sharp cuts in its high-profile mission.

The latest sign came yesterday when the Bush administration asked David M. Stone, the TSA's director, to step down in June, according to aviation and government sources.

...

The TSA has been plagued by operational missteps, public relations blunders and criticism of its performance from the public and legislators. Its "No Fly" list has mistakenly snared senators. Its security screeners have been arrested for stealing from luggage, and its passenger pat-downs have set off an outcry from women.

Under provisions of President Bush's 2006 budget proposal favored by Congress, the TSA will lose its signature programs in the reorganization of Homeland Security. The agency will probably become just a manager of airport security screeners -- a responsibility that itself could diminish as private screening companies increasingly seek a comeback at U.S. airports. The agency's very existence, in fact, remains an open question, given that the legislation creating the Department of Homeland Security contains a clause permitting the elimination of the TSA as a "distinct entity" after November 2004.

[Blog]

Here you go too, no one could have possibly seen this coming:

Private screeners more diligent than government counterparts

http://www.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/20...screeners.html

The Government Accountability Office found statistically significant evidence that passenger screeners, who work under a pilot program at five airports, including San Francisco International Airport, perform better than their federal counterparts at some 450 airports, Rep. John Mica, R-Fla. and chairman of the House aviation subcommittee, said Tuesday.

[Thalia]

I do not see requiring passports at the Canadian border doing anything to make the nation more secure. Don't terrorists already have at least 10 fake identities - each complete with required papers? They do in all the spy novels.

It will, however, be a huge inconvenience to those who live along the border. I think sales revenues in Michigan will take a beating just from my stubborn relatives alone. I know they are not going to get and carry around a passport just to shop or go to a ball game.