Unions--Good thing or a bad thing or a bit of both?

[kestra]

I've never been a part of a work union. I was reading an article on how WalMart was shutting down one of their stores in Quebec, shortly after the workers successfully unionized.

I have some friends who are unionized, and some who aren't, and are vehemently against the concept.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't unions started with the Ford Motor Company, shortly after the assembly line was created? The company kept increasing the speed of the assembly line or something, and the workers protested.....or something......maybe I'm getting my history mixed up.

Just curious as to how Threshers out there feel about the subject, and if any of you are unionized.

[Alydar]

I hate unions really. I have some firsthand experience with this, so here's my go at it. I used to work at Vons/Safeway companies as a bagger. Working there for over a year, I got some insight to the way they run things. First of all, becoming an employee meant that you HAD to join the UFCW (United Food and... something Workers.... whatever it was long ago). This was something that first took me aback, that I HAD to join a fucking union. I didn't want to pay union dues while making $6.90 an hour.

Now thanks to the wonders of the Union, Safeway/Vons put in this elaborate hierarchical system in place of assigning jobs. While at most non-union food stores they just hired you and assigned you to any position they had open, Safeway/Vons did things differently. You could only be hired as a bagger, and then you had to work your way up to other positions. This was due to their salary scale. If you were a bagger, you would make no more than $6.90 an hour, Service Deli folks would make something like $10.21 max, same with bakery I think. And here's the kicker. Cashiers would make up to $17.51 an hour!!!!! (And since you were paid triple on holidays, you could make $53.53 an hour!). So of course everyone wants to be a cashier. Now how is it that a cashier can make that amount of money for a job as unskilled as that? Oh yeah, managers were salaried positions and not amongst our union, which is sort of funny.

Now a year or so ago Vons/Safeway employees, along with other union stores like Ralphs and Albertsons went on strike. The reason being that they wanted better health benefits mostly I believe. This being long after I worked there. I believe it was absolutely reprehensible for those people to strike and complain about the benefits they were receiving. They were being paid far better than most unskilled labor positions. The fact that they were receiving any sort of benefits is telling that they had it much better off than most unskilled laborers too. Heck you even had a stock option plan. These people want to become rich but do so by working easy jobs like checking.

I tell you, the job of a bagger is much harder than that of a checker. All the checkers ever did was just scan the food items and make sure their checkstands were clean. We as baggers had to run around all over the store and bag produce furiously as they came down the line. In addition, we were responsible for returning carts to the store from the parking lot, cleaning entire checkstands (the checkers were responsible only for the area they stood inside), putting returned items back in place (yes folks, delicate stuff like milk and eggs, if returned, we put back into place for some unsuspecting person to buy!!!). We worked three times as hard for only 1/3rd of the pay. We only got 1/3rd of the pay thanks to those dastardly unions.

In summary, I believe most unions are an evil scourge to society. Unskilled jobs such as these have no right to be paying more than minimum wage. If you want to make more money then get an education and do something meaningful rather than strike and complain you're not getting enough. This goes the same for teamsters and trash pickups too. They have no right to complain.

Now, I will support some unions. For example a teachers union I applaud, for that does seem to be a thankless job with low pay. Basically any unions that cover skill positions will pass, but unions for unskilled positions should be abolished immediately.

[Rosuav]

Originally posted by Alydar
Now, I will support some unions. For example a teachers union I applaud, for that does seem to be a thankless job with low pay. Basically any unions that cover skill positions will pass, but unions for unskilled positions should be abolished immediately.

The classification of a job as "thankless" and "low pay" changes (at least for some jobs).

I personally am against permanent unions. The purpose of a union, and the way it can be good, is somewhat thus:
* Management is too busy to listen to individuals, and/or takes no notice ("You're just one person, get back to work!")
* Many workers believe something is wrong (be it salary, conditions, hours, anything)
* Instead of all going, one by one, and getting ignored in the order they come, they unite and tell Management that there are X people who all think this.

So far, so good. But when you just join the union, then whatever the union decides is put forward as "*number-of-members* people all say this", that's wrong. This is especially so if everyone MUST join the union.

Instead of having a union with dues etcetera, it would be much better (but much more work, which is why it's not done, I guess) for every proposal to have a champion (one person who strongly believes in it) who goes around collecting signatures on a petition. The champion acts as spokesman for all those who've signed the petition, speaks to Management, and is respected for the X signatures, thus giving the same benefit as the original union plan - but with every single member having actively supported the proposal.

Note that once the petition has been presented and dealt with, the "union" is "disbanded". The next proposal has no automatic advantage in signatories, and must stand alone.

Note also that if the proposal is a bad one (eg "double our wages and halve our hours" when you're already paid well), the management has the right to know who signed it. This provides the checks and balances required for the real world.

[Jidoe]

You know what they say about unions: Can't live with them and can't live without them.

Personally, I think that while unions have probably helped almost each and every one of us (even past actions that effects you every day), they have come to a point when they are just too powerful and too often a union could be stronger than the company.

For me and for many other people the equation is simple?
Unions=strikes=not good!

[Savaric]

Unions are very old and I was introduced to them a history class. Especially Andrew Carnegie and his steel industry, he completely ran his workers into the ground and bled them dry.

I believe employers are in a much better position to take advantage of workers, rather than vice versa. True, some jobs arent worth more than minimum wage. But some will also argue that minimum wage is still way too low. Anyway im not always sure what im talking about in these matters, but just remember what CEO's of big companies like mcdonalds and walmart are making. Think about how much money those corporations take in, then decide.

[Savaric]

Originally posted by Jidoe


Personally, I think that while unions have probably helped almost each and every one of us (even past actions that effects you every day), they have come to a point when they are just too powerful and too often a union could be stronger than the company.


Unions=strikes=not good!

Strikes are what keep the other guys in check. Stronger than the company? You any idea how powerful some of these corporations are? They can have an enormous influence on the government.

[Rosuav]

The corporations may have some clout, but the unions have plenty too. Don't forget, there's a LOT of votes to be won among workers, simply because they are so numerous.

As to strikes keeping them in check... maybe. But I think the number and severity is too much at present. (At least, in Australia. Maybe strikes are less common elsewhere?) I reckon stopping work should be an absolute LAST RESORT.

Carnegie was in the steel industry eh? I met the name first as a benefactor of libraries... there's a suburb of Melbourne called Carnegie, and two conflicting theories as to why.

[Shadarach]

It's people who think Unions run companies that keep Contractors employed. Personally local unions like the BLF should be subject to a lot closer scrutiny than what they get now, their practices of intimidation and abuse of employer - employee relationships would get any Joe Average arrested.

To play the devil's advocate, some more.. Unions and a number of other collective ideas equally don't work because human beings are by default too greedy and or concerned with getting one over their fellow humans to make them work 100% efficiently.

[Rosuav]

Originally posted by Shadarach
Unions ... don't work because human beings are by default too greedy...

Of course. Why did communism not work in Russia? Because people decided that if they were paid the same whether they worked or not, they wouldn't work! People will work for the benefits they get, or for love, but will rarely work for neither.