Not ADD? then it could be ODD!

[Grantref]

Originally posted by Katidyd
http://www.addadhdadvances.com/ODD.html

Like WOW! Imagine how relieved some parents are to be able to medicate their kids to another quack diagnosis.

And I suppose you've a Ph.D in child psychology, had experience in treating children or adults with diagnosed with ADD or ODD, or having been a child or adult diagnosed with same, or have perhaps ever even glanced at the DSM-IV?

If you have, what aspects of ADD and ODD do you feel are overdiagnosed and do you feel that the definitions used by psychologists are basically accurate but overused, or have fundamental flaws?

If not, fuck off you self-righteous arrogant prick and learn something about a field before you criticise it (yeah, that'll be the day).

I quote:

Common behaviors seen in oppositional defiant disorder include:


Losing one’s temper
Arguing with adults
Actively defying requests
Refusing to follow rules
Deliberately annoying other people
Blaming others for one's own mistakes or misbehavior
Being touchy, easily annoyed
Being easily angered, resentful, spiteful, or vindictive.
Speaking harshly, or unkind when upset
Seeking revenge
Having frequent temper tantrums

Of course you leave out the critical point.

The diagnosis of ODD depends opon these behaviors being present to a significantly greater frequency than is normal for a person of their age.

As others have noted, many of the above are frequently noted in teenagers. Only a frequency of these behaviors that is far beyond that normal frequency we would expect would lead to a diagnosis of ODD.

The purpose of the psychological definition of these disorders is not to turn every rebellious teenager into a psych patient, despite what ignorant outsiders may think. It's to identify individuals in which the behavior noted above has reached a degree far beyond what can be considered normal and cannot reasonably be explained by outside circumstances, and is not treatable using means such as changing setting.

[Grantref]

And to everyone saying that ADD is a scam and a joke and that there 'might' be people out there with it:

FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU ALL.

It wasn't a fucking scam that made me struggle through half my school career. It wasn't a fucking scam that my parents struggled with me to get me to focus on my schoolwork. It wasn't a joke characterization that a quack dreamed up after that 'quack' used the professionally accepted diagnostic critera to test the degree of my aptitude for paying attention, long- and short-term memory under conditions of distraction or no distraction, and found that I had a systematic bias toward consistently, significantly poorer performance on the tests requiring attention and focus than average people of the same age. I didn't imagine the improvement that I felt after taking Ritalin. My grades didn't go up by themselves. The crash-and-burn I experienced in college after deciding that I didn't need Ritalin anymore didn't happen by itself. The improvements in my relationship with Yelena and in my job when I take Ritalin aren't the results of a drug company fleecing me into paying out for their products.

Yes, there is a tendency to overdiagnose it, and parents should take the diagnosis of teachers and guidance counselors with a hefty grain of salt. There is also a tendency of our culture to cause a tendency towards attention-lacking behavior among individuals with no inherent ADD, and changing the setting for such an individual will frequently result in a great improvement.

Profits from Antibiotics, anti-cancer drugs, anti-HIV drugs, and pretty much any other drug out there are hefty too. Can't paint psychologists with a brush like that without tarring a lot of other medical problems too.

Ritalin is a stimulant, chemically related to methamphetamines. Overmedicating non-ADD children with it will not produce a zombie-like state. In ADD individuals, the portion of our brains dedicating to supressing impulses, coordinating trains of thought, maintaining focus of attention, etc. functions at a slower rate than normal. Ritalin, like caffine and other stimulants, 'wakes up' this portion of the brain and allows us to control our impulses, thoughts, and focus better. This is the same reason why children are frequently hyper when tired -- the portion of their brain that controls impulsivity is fatigued and not functioning well. The same reason is why drunks act on impulse -- alcohol, a depressant, impairs that suppresant function of the brain.

I really wish everyone questioning the existence of ADD would LEARN A DAMN THING ABOUT IT FIRST!

[Gilgamar]

Man....someone give him a chill pill

[Pyrosama]

Originally posted by Grantref

I really wish everyone questioning the existence of ADD would LEARN A DAMN THING ABOUT IT FIRST!

You cannot expect everyone to understand something they have not experienced before ...think about it. I don't like it when bible thumpers or 'saved' people tell me to read the bible so that I would believe in Jesus Christ and that his life was sacrificed for our sins. I hope they don't feel snubbed by my not believing what they believe or not experiencing what they've experienced.

In your support though, I have a son who was diagnosed with ADD by a psychiatrist and there were extensive tests perfomed only after years of effort were made to save him from self-destruction. Not one teacher, not one counselor and not even one person who had a child on medication for AD(H)D recommended that we get him seen by a professional. It was our own fear that something was terribly wrong because he was exhibiting what we now have learned is an acquired Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) which was explained to me as being onset when children are no longer able to cope with their ADD, or any other 'problem' in the confines of an environment within which normal children are able to cope. Self-esteem issues arise and can create alot of rebelliousness in kids, especially when they are good children who are having difficulties that they cannot explain.

Trust me...no parent wants to open themselves up to scrutiny by having their environment combed over with a fine-toothed comb in order to eliminate all other possibilites that could be causing the bad behavior in a child (including child abuse physical and/or mental) just to slap a label on their child as being ADD or something else that can just be explained away and medicated.

When caught at an early age, I think that it's hard to determine if there is a parenting issue or if there is actually something going on with the chemistry and hormone imbalance in the brain because younger children do not have the same ability to articulate how they perceive things and how they relate to their environment when being tested for such things. Mine was a special case because my son maintained a normal life and only exhibited signs that he was struggling when things became more complex for him (changing schedules, demanding workload). Focus is definitely something that I've seen corrected through medication, only he is not on Ritalin but Aderall instead.

All this I gained from being totally involved in the process and not letting a bunch of professionals blind-side me with non-sense. There is alot more involved in diagnosing a child with ADD than just talking to a hyper or out of control child and slapping some meds on a parent's belt as a tool to control the child. However, that's not to say that the pharmaceutical companies aren't pushing the propaganda that YOUR child may be ADD and that you should get them checked out. It DOES happen unfortunately.

[Aristotle]

Grantref, first of all, the "fuck off you ignorant prick" comment was totally out of line. If you cannot behave better you'll be banned from this forums. You owe a lot of people a lot of apologies for your outrageous behavior. What is with the huge "FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU ALL." ? Your behavior here actually starts to make the case for the opposition.

Secondly, anyone who has studied any of the DSMs know that they have become INCREASINGLY political in how they decide what goes in and what doesn't. I am no expert here, but my minor in college was psychology and my close friend and roommate in law school was a retired (read: fed up) drug abuse counsellor/therapist (majored in psychology, obviously). The DSM has been getting really out of whack over the last decade. I'm sure you are aware of this.

Third, the problem with ADHD and its ilk is that it is not being reserved for the most extreme cases. Any child that presents even the slightest challenges in (generally public) schools is getting hit with the ADHD label. Then the parents are commanded to medicate the child. In some states, there are efforts afoot to empower the state to require such medication when the state deems it necessary in order to attend school.

[Caer]

Originally posted by Aristotle
Any child that presents even the slightest challenges in (generally public) schools is getting hit with the ADHD label. Then the parents are commanded to medicate the child. In some states, there are efforts afoot to empower the state to require such medication when the state deems it necessary in order to attend school.

And, to make it even worse, many of these parents are encouraged by the schools to apply for Social Security disability for these children. At least, that's how it is where I live. At my job, we get way too many calls for parents trying to get their kid on SSI. I would wager that 90% of children's cases that we get calls for are for AD/HD.

Certainly, there are true instances of this disorder. However, I agree that it is far too widely diagnosed. Given that, for the schools (or perhaps just the general community mood) to encourage parents to get support from the SSA (especially with all the current talk about it's impending crisis), it does not exactly inspire the most sympathetic view of AD/HD.

[Isaviel]

I understand that this upsets Grantref being diagnosed with ADD but it doesn't mean that everyone is. I understand your frustration with things as you grew up but to say what you did was really uncalled for but I think it's because you were upset by things that were being said within the thread. Perhaps when he calms down he will apologize and express his frustrations a little better.

[Cyrinne]

Wow.

This thread existed for a while before I saw it, and I'm not sure where to start on my commentary. I see it from two sides, both as a student who suffered from ADHD in highschool and college, including horrible side effects from medications that eventually led to severe anxiety and addiction, and now as a teacher who sees students with attention disorders in the classroom I see the way the diagnosis is often defaulted to too quickly when other things such as speech language disorders, dyslexia, or even autism should probably be considered. But I have several points to make that I think are valid ones, and what I feel is sort of a double perspective on the situation.

First of all, I think it's very important to make clear that regardless of whether or not ADHD is overdiagnosed, stimulant medications are NOT the only way to treat it. They are, and always have been, something that should be considered as a last resort. Teachers have a variety of ways for working with students in a whole group setting who have ADHD, whether it's allowing them a quieter space to work independently, letting them complete written work on a computer or through dictation, letting them know when transitions are about to happen in the classroom so they have time to prepare themselves, etc etc. There are lots of ways that parents can help their children too, WITHOUT having to give them any kind of mind altering substances at home. I'm not speaking out for or against these medications, because those are decisions each parent and child and doctor need to make for themselves. Just making sure everyone keeps in mind that Ritalin is not the only solution out there.

Now, the labeling issue is a harder one to deal with. I know that gut instinct is to fight a 'label' especially when it comes with a stigma, and a fear of a common diagnosis brought on by lazy teachers. However, the way our system works, in order for any student who is struggling to get extra help by someone not their teacher in a small group setting they need to be 'coded'. (Imagine, even when you're angry at teachers, how frustrating this is for them too, when they see a student who they don't have time to tend to one on one in a huge classroom, and have to watch them slip behind). There are not a lot of codes out there, and ADHD is often one of the ones 'defaulted' to when the group is unsure of what is making a child restless and unable to focus and get the work done to standard. Our classes get bigger and bigger every year, and some children for whatever reason can not seem to learn in that kind of environment. The choices are always very difficult for both teachers and parents in those kind of situations.

I'm never sure what to say, when I'm asked whether I think ADHD is overdiagnosed. I do believe it is a real condition, because I've seen it, both in myself and in my students. There are some telltale signs that you can look for, and some strategies that when in place I think work better than any stimulant does. That being said, the advice I give both my students parents, and any of you, is to learn everything you can, look into all of your options, and speak with all your child's teachers and your pediatrician.

[Isaviel]

I read an article by a Doctor in Boston recently that actually suggest that you don't have your pediatrician make the final diagnoses because they can't make an accurate diagnoses within the amount of time they give for an appointment. The doctor actually suggest going to someone more professional like a child Psychologist. If I get the chance I will post the article for you.

[Isaviel]

From MediZine – Healthy Living magazine – 3rd quarter 2004
Taming ADHD
Understanding how to manage attention deficit hyperactivity disorder can help a child become more focused - By Sid Kirchheimer


Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) affects 2 million American children and is associated with lack of impulse control, inattention and other behavior problems. While it’s exact cause remains, unclear, more than 20 studies confirm that ADHD can be inherited. Researchers have also determined that it may trigger a chemical imbalance or changes in brain structure, function and even size.

Here, Edward Hallowell, M.D., an expert whose best selling book Driven to Distraction helped bring this condition to public attention, answers parents’ questions about ADHD.

MediZine Healthy Living: Is it a sign of ADHD that my child daydreams and gets really excited about certain activities?

Dr. Hallowell: No. ADHD is clearly distinct from these common behaviors. Most of all, it is characterized by underachievement. It gets in the way of school and has been going on for most of your child’s life. That isn’t to say that symptoms occur every day. Many children with ADHD get good grades, but have periods in which they don’t perform as well as they could. Some days a child does great, while on others he or she is spaced out. This shifting behavior confuses parents, who think their child isn’t trying as hard as he or she could. The day-to-day symptoms may be inconsistent, but there is a consistent pattern overall.

MHL: How is ADHD diagnosed?

Dr. H: Teachers are usually the first to call attention to symptoms, but those most qualified to make a diagnosis are a child psychiatric, pediatric neurologist or a child psychologist. The doctor should take an extended medical and psychiatric history of both parents and the child, perhaps talk to teachers, do psychological testing and perform a quantitative EEG (a test that records electrical patterns in the brain). Unfortunately, a primary care physician often makes a diagnosis without enough knowledge. You simply cannot get a proper diagnostic workup in 10 minutes at your family doctor’s office.

MHL: Must a child with ADHD take medication?

Dr. H: Most parents don’t want to put their children on medication – and it’s fine not to. However, medications decrease symptoms in about 70 percent of children who take them. Even so, they are only one part of the treatment.

MHL: What else can manage symptoms?

Dr. H: Psychotherapy and counseling to teach behavior management and social skills.

MHL: What can I do to help my child?

Dr. H: Regular exercise may be the most important of all nonmedication approaches. We don’t know exactly why but physical exercise has a positive effect on the brain. Organized sports, as along as they aren’t overscheduled, are good for those with ADHD. In addition,. They help produce a stabilizing emotional state, as do family dinners and similar activities. Managing your child’s diet is also important. Excess consumption of carbohydrates, sugars and additives doesn’t cause ADHD, but it tends to make children less focused.


Edward Hallowell, M.D., is a child psychiatrist in the Boston area.