Eli & Archie Manning's Smart Move

[Alydar]

Originally posted by vin
So let me get all this straight.
1-The Chargers had absolutely no chance of signing Manning.
2-The only other player they wanted was Rivers
3-They had no trade lined up prior to the draft

So tell me, why didn't they just pick Rivers? Why go through "the whole soap opera" when Manning told them a week before the draft that he wouldn't play for them. Do you honestly think the Chargers are that stupid? Lets draft a guy we know will never play for us and just hope and pray that the team that takes Rivers will trade with us.

1- Yes, you are catching on, Chargers had ZERO chance of signing Manning.
2- Either Rivers or Roethlisberger. They wanted a QB, that much was obvious to all.
3 - Yes, if they had a trade agreement before the draft don't you think they would have consumated it before the draft, like the Chargers did when then passed on Vick? This is a question Gad and you can't answer. What would be the point of drafting Eli and then waiting an hour later to announce the deal?

Why not just pick Rivers with no.1 overall pick. Ehmm... hello!! Did you not see the parameters of the deal? The Chargers get an extra first, third, and fifth round draft choice just for switching two QB's??? Chargers knew they would get some extra compensation if they drafted Manning then traded him down, but that extra first rounder was just downright silly. It was well known that the Giants coveted Manning. There were numerous articles on it, especially on GM Ernie Accorsi wanting to use Manning to exorcise his demons from the botched job he did on drafting John Elway. So yes, you're right, the Chargers are not stupid. They did their homework and played it smart.

So Vin, if you and Gad seriously still believe that the deal was agreed upon before draft day then explain to me why they did not announce it prior to the draft, like every single other team does? I don't think you can really. It was an obvious draft day trade.

[Gadiantor]

Originally posted by Alydar
So Vin, if you and Gad seriously still believe that the deal was agreed upon before draft day then explain to me why they did not announce it prior to the draft, like every single other team does? I don't think you can really. It was an obvious draft day trade.

There were offers on the table before draft day. That means that there were initial discussions with more than one team with general terms of the trade laid out. The reason everything happened on draft day was because the deal had to be finalized. You obviously can't finalize the deal before the Giants pick Rivers.

You really seem to have an oversimplistic view of how NFL teams make trades. There are discussions that go on between teams that the media never hears about as they explore their options. No team would go into a huge trade without having groundwork laid, and exploring multiple options.

Your answer to Vin on why they didn't draft Rivers with the first pick really drives the point home. They knew they'd be able to make a deal like that because they had discussed it with teams before the draft. If they didn't know they were going to get that kind of a deal they would have picked Rivers. You're right, the Chargers did their homework, which included talking to other teams. I know it is hard to imagine, but NFL teams actually discuss possible deals with each other before they come to terms.

The Giants had to have had competition on this deal. There is no way they would have given up so much if there was no competition. The Chargers had no chance of signing Manning, which would have given the Giants some leverage if there wasn't anyone else in the picture.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Gadiantor

The Giants had to have had competition on this deal. There is no way they would have given up so much if there was no competition. The Chargers had no chance of signing Manning, which would have given the Giants some leverage if there wasn't anyone else in the picture.

Precisely.

And why don't other GMs/teams publicly state that they were in the running also?

Because if Eli Manning turns out to be anywhere near as good as Peyton, those GMs would be fired, tarred, and feathered for not giving up the moon to get him.

[Isaviel]

Mmhmm. The guy needs to get experience like his brother and then he'll be fine. He just needs some time.

[Alydar]

Originally posted by Gadiantor
There were offers on the table before draft day. That means that there were initial discussions with more than one team with general terms of the trade laid out. The reason everything happened on draft day was because the deal had to be finalized. You obviously can't finalize the deal before the Giants pick Rivers.

There were offers on table before draft day? And you know this how exactly? Do you have a well placed secret source within either one of the organizations that told you so? You are purely speculating here.

Now I'm sure there were discussions prior to draft day with a quite a few teams here and there. But the only serious suitors were the Giants. If there were others in the race then networks would have gotten a hold of it from leaks perpetuated by the teams.

To further drive home the point that the Giants were the only serious suitors, here are some articles.
From Nick Canepa, San Diego Union-Tribune

The NFL draft is less than three weeks away. Admit it. You want to know what the Chargers are going to do with the first overall pick. I want to know. Chat roomers are spreading rumors. The dot- coms are dotting their coms with speculation.

The Giants, with the fourth overall selection, are desperate for Ole Miss quarterback Eli Manning, don't you know. They want to move up and swap with San Diego.

If the Giants really want the Chargers' No. 1, [Smith] should wait. Four drafts ago, when the Bolts last had the first overall selection, they traded it to Atlanta, which took Michael Vick. The Falcons were salivating over Vick. Late Chargers GM John Butler should have held out for more, such as another No. 1.

NOTE: This article was before Mannings request that he not be drafted by SD. That makes the last paragraph a moot point.
From Magee, Canepa, Stein, SD Union Trib, Apr 24, 2004

The ideal situation would be for the Chargers to trade down twice, acquiring extra draft choices in the process, and then grab [Philip Rivers]. Hypothetically, the Chargers could exchange choices with the Giants, who have the No. 4 selection, and pick up a second- round choice. If Gallery remains on the board at No. 4 -- no certainty -- the Chargers then could exchange places with the Browns at No. 7 and add another second-rounder. In that seventh slot, Rivers should still be there. The problem is that [Eli Manning]'s declaration weakens the Chargers' position in working out a deal with the Giants. Selecting Manning despite his objections is the worst scenario. The way things have been going for the Chargers, they likely would wind up upside down in a ditch, their wheels still spinning.

That really weakens your argument Gad that the deal was agreed upon before draft day, it says plain and clear that selecting Manning against his wishes is the worst case scenario. If they agreed upon the trade then they would have had it immediately announced. It also weakens the argument the Giants had to give up an extra first.

You really seem to have an oversimplistic view of how NFL teams make trades. There are discussions that go on between teams that the media never hears about as they explore their options. No team would go into a huge trade without having groundwork laid, and exploring multiple options.

Of course teams discuss potential deals and whatnot. But look at the time frame they had. I believe it was not more than 72 hours before the draft that the Mannings laid their bombshell. You don't have that much time to work things out.

Your answer to Vin on why they didn't draft Rivers with the first pick really drives the point home. They knew they'd be able to make a deal like that because they had discussed it with teams before the draft. If they didn't know they were going to get that kind of a deal they would have picked Rivers. You're right, the Chargers did their homework, which included talking to other teams. I know it is hard to imagine, but NFL teams actually discuss possible deals with each other before they come to terms.

The Giants had to have had competition on this deal. There is no way they would have given up so much if there was no competition. The Chargers had no chance of signing Manning, which would have given the Giants some leverage if there wasn't anyone else in the picture.

The Chargers did not pick no.1 overall because they knew they would get compensation if they traded down. If they knew they could not get an extra first, but some other additional picks for swapping the two QB's, they still would have traded down. Even if they could only pry away an extra 4th or 5th rounder, they'd still would have picked Manning. It's an extra pick after all for trading two QB's is it not?

Yes, I'm sure the Chargers talked to other teams, but those discussions I don't believe led anywhere. The Giants were the only suitors for many reasons: 1) They were in an excellent position to draft one of the other top 3 QB's; 2) None of the other teams in the top 10 were interested in a QB, so strike them off as potential teams to trade with; 3) Anyone else outside of the top 10 who wanted Manning would have had to deal with the fact that none of the top 3 QB's, one of whom the Chargers desparately wanted to end up with, would not be available to them. This basically knocks them out of the running (unless they offered a package of something like 3 no.1 choices).

Oh and one more thing which basically renders your argument that this was a draft day deal moot. When the Giants got on the clock with the no.4 pick, Phillip Rivers was still on the table. If there was a prior trade agreement, then why oh why did they not send in the trade agreement to the commish as soon as the Giants were on the clock and then have the Chargers pick Rivers? Why was the deal not announced until a few picks later? Oh yes, of course, they were still negotiating terms of the trade with each other. They had not reached and agreement yet!

Enough said.

[Gadiantor]

If I were to continue I'd just end up saying the same exact things I've already said at least a couple of times already. Regardless of how you think the deal unfolded one thing is clear, the Mannings definitely knew how to play the system to get what they wanted. I look forward to seeing if Eli works out for the Giants.