Should Bars be held accountable?

[Azyael]

I don't know all the laws concerning Bars, and the differences between each State, but I have heard numerous local stories that make me wonder. These two stick out in my mind:

1. In a nearby town where I live a man got wasted at the Bar. He then proceeded to go drunk driving, where he smashed into someone's front porch. The local bar had its liquor license taken away, and was unable to get it back for around a year. It was a bar/restaurant combo, so it managed to survive.

2. Around 15 years ago two men got drunk at a restaurant I work at (It's a bar/restaurant/hotel combo). They then proceeded to go to their rooms, and the stairway's/walkways to the rooms are all outside and on the second floor. I don’t know exactly what happened (I’ve heard many things: They hated each other, drug deal gone wrong, etc, etc) but one man through the other off the railing. The man who got thrown became a paraplegic, and his family sued the bar and won a 2.5 million dollar settlement.

My question is: Should Bars be held accountable for the actions of their patrons? Should Bars be forced to regulate the amount of consumption for their customers and cut them off before the ‘problematic’ point?

[Metiao]

I've also heard stories like that... I even remember the one about the person being thrown from the 2nd floor...


I don't know the laws, but I think that bars should NOT be punished for something the drunks do. To me it's unfair.

I also work at a bar/rest. combo. I remember one of the bartenders telling me he had a bunch of assholes at the bar, and finally the bartender cut them off. Moments after they left, he called the other bars in town and told them not to serve the guys.

What if a person is cut off, but he goes somewhere else to drink, eather another bar, or buys some stuff from a store, and does something stupid, and the bar he was at hours before STILL be held accountable?

To me it's all bullshit. I beleve in "your responsable for your own actions" regardless of how your thinking.
They chose to get drunk, they chose to accept the consequences.

It's kinda like if someone was drunk and killed someone (driving or not) is that person going to get off only because he was drunk, and wasn't thinking right?

[Zyth]

I am unsure of how things are done in the USA, but here we have a high tax on products which affect society negatively. The external costs of alcohol are indeed things like you have described, but the money gained from the tax goes into repairing the damages done.

This means that it is holding the manufacturers responsible, and taxing -them- due to higher prices.

It would be too hard for bars to regulate their patrons, everyone has a different cut off point, and not everyone is likely to be violent when drunk.

I just wish people would be more responsible.

[Quotox]

The type of laws you are talking about are pretty common. I believe well over 40 of the states in the US have such legislation and wouldn't be surpirsed if you live in a city they will have something similiar.

The idea is that a bartender has a good view of his costumers. The link is that it is a public health concern. similar to lowering DUI blood alcohol. It is believed those selling intoxicating beverages have a public responsiblity and the state will hold them to that. Furthermore, they should take care to not sell alcohol to those already intoxicated.

Its a nanny state type thing at the end of the day.

If you want more articulate and varied takes on this, just type in Dram Shop in a search engine and I'm sure you'll get more than you would care to know.

[Damieux]

Originally posted by Metiao
To me it's all bullshit. I beleve in "your responsable for your own actions" regardless of how your thinking.
They chose to get drunk, they chose to accept the consequences.

But the victim didn't choose to accept the consequences. I don’t think anyone would suggest that the drunk shouldn’t be held accountable. The problem is that the drunk often lacks the financial resources to remedy the harm that he or she has caused. The question then becomes whether the victim should be required to bear that cost alone.

If the industry (i.e., the bar) profited from serving the drunk past the point of reasonable care, then it is entirely fair that the industry should pay for the damage caused by the drunk instead of the victim. Drunks causing accidents is a cost to society of the business in which the industry is engaged. If the industry did not pay that cost, then it would be a hidden expense which society would be paying for the industry.

Not only is this approach fair, but it also makes sound economic sense. The industry can plan for the expense by purchasing liability insurance. The industry will be encouraged to practice reasonable care in who it serves by the varying cost of insurance premiums. Also, the industry can pass the cost of the premiums back to its customers...making the drunks ultimately responsible for paying the bill.

[kestra]

people who can't act with at least the basics of responsibility when drinking should simply not drink.
why make others pay for their stupidity and bad judgement?

[Solmyr]

To me this sounds like punishing a girl who was wearing very provocative clothes and some guy "couldn't resist" raping her.

[Jozep]

I have been a bar/restaurant manager for the last 6 years, and it is true that bars (at least in Canada, and I assume the States) have to bear some of the responsibility for their patrons' actions after having consumed alcohol, esp. in regards to drunk driving.

The disclaimer here is that provided the establishment (i.e. me) offers to get the guest a cab or some other form of transportation, and the guest says no, then we have done our part, and the onus falls back on the guest to bear the responsibility for his/her actions. How you prove that you did this, though, i hope I never have to go to court and try it!

Anyway, I think it's retarded to make anybody other than the person who did the deed to bear responsiblity. In the case of a drunk driver, where does it end? Do you sue the distillery/brewery for making a product which results in inebriation? Car manufacturers for building products which harm others when you hit them with it? the government for providing licenses to establishments allowing people to consume alcoholic beverages?

But, it's a lawsuit happy society, in which people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, i guess. What can you do.

[Damieux]

Originally posted by Jozep
But, it's a lawsuit happy society, in which people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, i guess.

It always amuses me when people throw out this line in support of their argument that they shouldn’t have to take responsibility for THEIR actions.

You are making money by helping people get drunk. Those drunks are then hurting people. Sure the drunks are responsible, but if you kept serving the drunk past the point when the drunk should have been cut off, then so are you. It is as simple as that: take responsibility for your actions.

Why should bars be allowed to make money doing something that is causing people harm and not have to pay the people who are harmed for the consequences of their business?

As to “where does it end?”, this is the classic question of proximate cause. In the end, its just a policy determination. The law holds people accountable for attenuated consequences of their actions to the extent that it is good public policy to do so. Here, it is pretty clear to me that it is good public policy to hold the bars accountable. As an industry profiting from the sale of alcohol, bars can pass on the liability costs to their customers just the same as any other cost of doing business. As compared to other alcohol industries, the bars are the industry that is best situated to exercise ordinary prudence and cut off their patrons before they reach a state of dangerous inebriation.

[kestra]

not everyone who goes to a bar gets drunk.
Again, people need to stop abandoning their own personal responsibility, and show at least the minimum amount of accountability.
If you can't drink without getting wasted and becoming an ass, then you shouldn't drink.