Canada.... wtf mates?!?!

[Talithia]

If it's possible for these two to get consientious objector status, then fleeing to Canada was pretty fuckin' idiotic.

However, I don't think it's fair to say, "You signed up for the military, now you're going to fight in this particular action." I mean, I can imagine signing up (especially in the post-9-11 fervor) to DEFEND your homeland. That, however, doesn't mean that you signed up to go attack whatever random place the current government deems _may_ be a threat at some point, or would be good for the economy, or some other of a myriad of reasons that have nothing to do with the original reason you signed up for the military which was to protect your country. So, yeah, I can imagine signing up and then realizing that you don't want to go get killed for something you don't believe in.

Again, though, if they had other options than fleeing to Canada, they really should have taken those first!

[Frobozz]

Hmm.

I don't know Talithia, I think that the military (any branch) makes it quite clear that you can be placed into combat zones if you're needed there. This is my experience dealing with the MEPS kids that come to the Hotel, they all know that they might end up in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, any place that they could be needed.

They signed a contract and there are penalties for breaching that contract, I think they should have to suffer them. Just like any type of contractual relationship people go into it bargaining for a certain benefit... Soldiers have huge benefits bestowed upon them, but they also have huge detriments placed on their shoulders for which I think non-soldiers should be greatful.

I think they should be returned to the States and be subjected to the proper authorities.

[Talithia]

Yeah, but they signed a contract to join up in defense of this country, right? I mean, that's what all those "join the army" ads say. Considering most of GW's explanations for going to war with Iraq (instead of, hey, what ever happened to going after the guy responsible.. Bin Ladin?) as a defensive action haven't held under scrutiny... wouldn't it be fair to say they (the gov't) breeched the contract first?

[Khirmint]

For anyone interested, here's one story on the matter:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...190714,00.html

One of them did apply for conscientious objector status, and was denied. The other simply fled. (according to the article)

I feel bad for their problems, but I fail to see how they should be ours. They signed up willingly and should've known the potential consequences for doing so. They joined the military, where they train you to kill people and follow orders to do so. What were they expecting?

It is possible that they do face the death sentence, though I cannot see that being carried out. But if I did, I would probably say grant them asylum.

That said, send them back. As Jozep put so nicely, you make your own bed and you sleep in it.

-Khirmint

[Frobozz]

Originally posted by Talithia
Yeah, but they signed a contract to join up in defense of this country, right? I mean, that's what all those "join the army" ads say. Considering most of GW's explanations for going to war with Iraq (instead of, hey, what ever happened to going after the guy responsible.. Bin Ladin?) as a defensive action haven't held under scrutiny... wouldn't it be fair to say they (the gov't) breeched the contract first?

I dont think so, maybe!! Im just a 1L. I would say that from the military contracts I've seen the military makes it really clear in 48 point font that says you may see combat.

[Talithia]

I'm not denying the fact that when you sign up for the military you are well aware of the fact that you may see combat. And I don't think that "not wanting to see combat" is a valid excuse for getting out when you voluntarily signed up. However, there are _reasons_ for combat, and, in the case of Iraq, it can be argued that those reasons aren't exactly ones of defense of the United States.

[Frobozz]

That's what Im saying, I dont think anywhere on the contract they state that you will ONLY see combat in defense of the united states. I think it specifically says combat or as you are needed by the Government.. etc

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Jozep
It is sad how poor political relationships can lead to the misconception that that gov't speaks for its population it supposedly represents ... but that is another rant.

I agree. That is exactly why I wanted to ask Canadians how THEY felt about this.

I think a community like Threshold shows how PEOPLE really feel about each other when they are able to forget for a moment about nationalistic ties.

I think I can speak for our American players when I say that we love (and love to tease) our Canadian Thresher brethren (and I imagine this goes both ways).

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Talithia
I'm not denying the fact that when you sign up for the military you are well aware of the fact that you may see combat. And I don't think that "not wanting to see combat" is a valid excuse for getting out when you voluntarily signed up. However, there are _reasons_ for combat, and, in the case of Iraq, it can be argued that those reasons aren't exactly ones of defense of the United States.

When you join the military, you don't get to make that argument. You follow orders.

Furthermore, was it "defense" of the United States when we helped out in the Balkans? Nope. That doesn't mean soldiers can say "hmm I don't think I feel like it."

When you make a committment like joining the military, you no longer have the same options available to you as a civlian. In fact, that's why the very CONCEPT of a civilian exists: because civilians are different from the military.

[Lavith]

When you sign up for the military, you sign up to take orders, not to make stratigical, or ploitical decisions. Anyone signing up for the military thinking they can pick and choose when to take orders, and which conflicts to get involved in....is an idiot. Also, assuming you are only going to 'defend' your country, or that it even means that you will be sitting around Stateside with a gun, waiting for invaders to cross our borders..is just silly. Thats not how the world works.

Also, I am getting tired of hearing people say, "Well, what about our real target? Bin Laden?" WHAT THE FUCK DO PEOPLE THINK WE ARE DOING IN AFGANASTAN? Pat Tilman DIED in combat fighting suspected Taliban and Al Queda in Afganastan. Also, as a side note, its not a war on Bin Laden, its a war against terrorism, and that shit is everywhere. Don't assume that just because the War in Iraq is getting more Media coverage that we are not working all over the world on eradicating terrorist scum.

Umm..and I am off topic now..please Canadians, these guys knew exactly what they were signing up for, I have been to recruiters, and I have many friends in the military, they don't pretend you might not have to fight, or go overseas. These guys I assume are part of the "Lets milk the military for the benefits, and hope we don't have to fight" brigade. They deserve to be tried, and sent to prison.