Canada.... wtf mates?!?!

[Aristotle]

Ok, I love our Canadian players. Some of my best friends from the game are Canadian. Maybe you guys can help me out here.

Out of a couple million active duty members of the US military, two have deserted and scurried up to Canada.

These are not conscientious objectors. These are not draft dodgers. They are deserters.

They signed on the dotted line, put a paw in the air, and pledged to give their life to serve their country in the US military. They collected their pay checks. They received their benefits (health care, lodging, food, etc.). They received their incredibly expensive training.

When it stopped being paychecks, benefits, and running around playing soldier and turned into actual combat... they bailed on their commitments.

The problem is, it is looking like Canada might give them asylum.

Numerous Canadian newspapers and periodicals are hailing these deserters as heroes. I am not kidding. They are engaging in massive deification of these deserters. They have written that it is heroic because the US is led by a President that stole the election (I believe that gem was from a Toronto newspaper).

This disturbs me greatly. Canada is supposed to be a friend of ours. They should not be harboring criminals. A deserter is a criminal. This is not a political matter.

I'm sorry I don't have links to any news articles but I heard about this on TV news and haven't had time to look things up online. I am sure such information is easily found and I do not believe that any facts are in contention here.

If I recall, both deserters are privates in the Army.

I'm disgusted by these two scumbag, traitorous criminals and if Canada gives them asylum I'll be disappointed in our friend and neighbor.

I have already heard about proposed boycotts of Canadian products and services if they grant asylum and I do not think that would be good for Canada's economy.

So I ask our Canadian players: what do you think about this? Do you approve of your country granting asylum to these deserters?

[Vidare]

I remember reading about one guy deserting, and coming up here and requesting asylum a few months ago. Personally, I think it's sad, and pathetic. These guys signed a legally binding document, and now they're renegging on their part of the deal(ie: serving in the US military for X amount of years). IMHO, there shouldn't even be a question of "Do we grant these guys asylum, and let them stay? Or do we hand them over to the US military, to mete out punishment?" Send those traitorous bastards back, and let the military deal with it.

[Ailin]

I couldn't find news articles on this story. One Italian paper, The Village Voice and Chicago Sun Times (which page didn't load, guess you have to be a subscriber) but...

So far, it look like this is a case of they have entered Canada but the Canadian Gov. has not offered or issued asylum. They have to prove refugee status. Due to the work I have done and what the article states (I have it quoted below) this is incredibly hard to prove.

"To win refugee status, Hinzman and Hughey will have to demonstrate that they are fleeing a well-founded fear of persecution in the U.S.-an extremely tough claim. What's more, notes a former member of Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board, refugee law specifies that "prosecution is not persecution": Punishment for breaking a law is not grounds for asylum unless the law itself-China's one-child policy, for instance-is deemed a form of persecution."

From an article in The Village Voice link http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0414/solomon.php

I am a landed immigrant in Canada but I do, along with my Canadian born husband pay sizeable taxes. The thought that any of our money would go towards harbouring these two and more so paying for the refugee trial maddens me. When I know (again this has been the focus of my career ) there are real families and singles in incredibly dire political situations that cannot enter the country.

As has been stated prior, they willingly joined the forces. I would assume when one joins the military they do so with the understanding your being trained first and foremost to go to war. A solider who refuses to go to fight is like a stripper unwilling to get nekkid, looks impressive but not very useful.

Now I may be corrected but I understand that the American military recognises conscientious objectors. Did these men even have to turn deserter?

As the daughter of a career soldier, I have my own personal beliefs about these two but for the sake of this argument I am inclined to be more distressed they could be granted refugee status. I know, for a fact, there are woman and children deported back to third world countries and certain death because they do not have the proof the stringent refugee requirements demand.

As for Canadians in general, sometimes the greatest strength is the weakness. My experience of them is they are by and large an easy going, polite populace. They even poke fun of themselves for this trait. They are over taxed and under heard by the Government but they (we) do very little about it. Canadians are depicted in world's media as sitting on the sidelines a lot. However many Canadians do voice their opinions and they are often contrary to the Government policies, both domestic and foreign. Thing is, the population never bothers to take it beyond the neighbourhood Tim Hortons.

But hey... Bowling For Columbine made Canada seem like utopia and in alot of ways it is wonderful. Maybe you have to give up passion to live in it. I hope the deserters checked their public voices at the border, otherwise they will never blend in.

[Grantref]

Originally posted by Ailin
Now I may be corrected but I understand that the American military recognises conscientious objectors. Did these men even have to turn deserter?

Conscientious objector status only protects you from being drafted. These men were not drafted, they volunteered and swore an oath.

[kestra]

--However many Canadians do voice their opinions and they are often contrary to the Government policies, both domestic and foreign. Thing is, the population never bothers to take it beyond the neighbourhood Tim Hortons.--

You may have to explain Tim Hortons to the Americans.
It's the nation wide coffee shop chain. Named after a hockey player.

Protests are usually the biggest in Toronto, Ottawa, and Vancouver, and to a lesser extent, Montreal.

I always found it interesting how our PM is frequently on the front lines of the House of Commons; answering political attacks from the opposition parties. I think this is the "Question Period".

Is the US president challenged in the same way on a daily basis, directly, to his face, by the opposite party??

I've seen Bush Jr. speak without prepared statements. It's not pretty!!

[Ailin]

Grantref, actually I was fairly certain I was right and was looking for a military person to affirm that and seems I am ...

March 14, 2003
Advice for Conscientious Objectors in the Armed Forces (html version). "A comprehensive, step-by-step guide to applying for conscientious objector status. This edition....builds upon a tradition which began in 1970 with the First Edition. Advice has since reached over 40,000 military men and women who had decided that they could no longer in good conscience remain in the military. The 1970 Advice spoke to a generation troubled by the war in Vietnam. This generation of conscientious objectors, too, has seen war--most recently in the Persian Gulf, and before that in Panama. It has experienced the end of the Cold War and the flowering of hopes for peace; and it has watched as those hopes turned to disappointment in the chaotic, dangerous post-Cold War world." The G.I. Rights Hotline has recently reported they "fielded a record number of calls, mostly from military personnel and families seeking advice on conscientious-objector and other discharges."


and the link to the actual booklet outlining how a serving GI goes about claiming this status ....


http://www.objector.org/Resources/adviceforcos.pdf

Kestra to keep this in the theme of the thread this isn't about American Vs. Canadian politics directly. If you re read what I wrote its really a point that Canadians are not how they are depicted around the world. They do by having an easy going nature do not sound the collective voice as loud as other parts of the world.

but we never heard on either of those prior posts the opinions on the topic

[Gadiantor]

On every Air Force mobility line (the literal line you have to move station to station to before you are mobilized on a deployment into a combat area (heck we do them on deployments to non-combat areas too)) there are lawers there to advise commanders on the issue of consiensus objectors. I'm sure the other services do the same. Someone can become an objector after they join the military and there are provisions to deal with them, but becoming an objector is far from the easiest way to get out of going to war. If someone wanted to get out of going to combat there are easier ways to do it than run to Canada. I'll not list any of them here, as I have no intention of encouraging anyone to get out of deploying. All I'm going to say is that running to Canada shows a lack of imagination and inginuity, even for our most junior of enlisted troops.

[Daekyn]

Is the punishment for desertion still execution? Has that ever even been pulled off in recent history (past 50-100 years)? If so, the idea wasn't only showing a lack of imagination, it was also showing a complete lack of forsight.

[Aristotle]

I read that the punishment for this act would be 5 years in prison.

[Jozep]

Over the last few years, the relationship between the governments of Canada and the US has been faltering. Largely because our ex-PM, Chretien, and his cronies clearly disliked Dubya and his policies.

Add to that the Iraq war which Canada did not participate in, the banning of Beef across the border by the US gov't, the calling of Bush a 'moron' by a senior gov't official, the calling of Canada 'Soviet Canuckistan' by PAt Buchanan I think ... all point to a decline in what has historically been a great relationship.

Now, we have a new Prime Minister who says he is dedicated to rebuilding that friendship, I expect that these soldiers will be politely (!) shown the way back to the US.

The only times Canada has not extradited criminals back to the States has been if they stood a chance to be executed, as Canada abolished the death penalty. If these "soldiers" signed up then realized 'holy shit, I don't wanna get killed', well, I can understand that line of thinking, but, hey, you make your bed, etc.

Also, by the way, the overwhelming majority of Canadians like Americans, even if we do go to great lengths to talk about how we're 'not' American. It is sad how poor political relationships can lead to the misconception that that gov't speaks for its population it supposedly represents ... but that is another rant.