War on Terrorism

[Salimar]

Originally posted by Graeblyn

I'm sorry, but Spain's election results are selfish, craven, shortsighted and COWARDLY.

I am proud of the Spanish population. They actually suprised me. The first question after the attacks wasn't WHO but actually WHY. Looking for the root of the problem. As I said before, loads of people from Spain didn't want to go to war and the government sended us.

I think, people like you who consider that the rest of the world should follow the U.S. in the line the U.S. wants are the ones who are selfish. Listen to me, the most of Spanish people did not want to go to war and consider this war is not legal and does not consider it as a fight against terrorism.

Shortsighted? how is this? we could see through the manouvres of our government.

About the cowardly remark. Clearly Bush said: "you are with us or against us". The U.S. is the strongest country in the world. How is to go against its desires coward? I have my doubts that Zapatero is going to be able to retrieve the troops. The international pressure is huge. Perhaps he will push another U.N. resolution what would return some power to the U.N.

Salimar

[Solmyr]

What's funny in all this is that the way the Left is talking, it's almost like the US was directly responsible for the Madrid attacks, rather than the terrorists.

Blame the US for everything. You'll never go wrong on that one.

[Malacasta]

That was a total troll Solmyr.
Two leftists have responded in this thread, and neither one has blamed America for the terrorist bombings.

[leira]

Originally posted by Graeblyn
I can't stand George Bush. In fact, I can think of only a handful of people in the world I detest more then him. HOWEVER, were terrorists to attack a U.S. target similar to what Spain had happen to them shortly before the Presidential Election, I almost certainly would change my plans and vote for George Bush. Not so much to say "Fuck You" to the terrorists, but because a change in leadership directly after such an attack sends a dangerous message that terrorists will take heart from, and use before every election in Western Democracies from now on.

I'm sorry, I'm totally against the idea of letting a single terrorist attack dictate the next 4 years of a country's future. It doesn't matter whether you specifically vote for or against the terrorists' wishes, you are giving them a HUGE amount of power either way. Not to mention, you are quite possibly screwing your country over by putting someone in charge that you know isn't going to do a good job of it. I believe that 4 years of leadership by a poor leader could easily do far more damage than terrorists ever could.

[Salimar]

Solmyr, you are trying to find some argument to involve the U.S. in this elections. I am sorry to tell you, this time the U.S. did not get involved. We only voted against an antidemocratic government who didn't listen to its population (not only about the war, the prestige, the unemployment, the public education, the housing price,etc.). These results did not develop only in 3 days as most of the international press seems to think and publish.

Again, the vote was against a bad government who didn't exhitate to use a terrorist attack to get more votes. Because as the elections got closer the polls were given them as possible losers. As you can see in the Leira post, the intention of vote to the right didn't change. The terrorist attack affected the number of voters, it increased, what is good for democracy. Also it made the real left to lose votes because comunist people voted socialist to kick the government out the power (so you should be happy about this one, the comunists in Spain are nearly disappeared after using their vote as "useful vote", they lost their independent parlamentarial group). So the only losers in the elections were the comunists:

- The right kept the same votes (but lost places in the congress because the percentage of votes decreased)
- Socialists won (gained votes and percentage of votes)
- Comunists lost 4 people in the congress.
(lost votes and percentage of votes).

In summary, Spain is a leftist kind of country. We were 40 years under a fascist government and this history is still very tender. So it is common that the socialist party win. They lost before because there were many cases of corruption. We'll keep an eye on them now.

Salimar

[kestra]

Superpower(s) can only go around pissing off the world for so long, until someone starts fighting back.

I think it's laughable that some feel that the US has done nothing on the global stage that would provoke an attack such as 911.
3000 deaths in one day, however isn't funny.

False Prophets wrapping themselves up in the American flag, touting American virtues, all the while undermining them"

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by kestra

I think it's laughable that some feel that the US has done nothing
on the global stage that would provoke an attack such as 911.

What is not laughable (because it is repulsive) is that anyone would think we did anything to provoke such an attack.

Every country in the world works to do things in the best interests of its own populace. That is natural.

What are the Middle Eastern nations complaining about?

They tried to obliterate Israel from the planet, failed, lost territory in their failure, and now think Israel should just give it back?

Would they have given back Israel if they had conquered it successfully? Hell no.

They have in abundance one of the most valuable natural resources in the world. Do they use it to build infrastructure? Do they use it to further the education of their people? Do they use it to build industry in their country?

Do they emulate things like the Tennessee Valley Authority or other things modern nations do to benefit the entire country?

Nope. They use it so a few shieks can be mega-billionaires while 90%+ of the population are uneducated, unskilled, and abysmally poor.

They also completely subjugate half their population (women).

Then, because they don't want their people to see who is really to blame, they blame the "Evil Capitalist American Satan". Somehow we are responsible for the fact that these shieks cannot see fit to use their massive oil wealth to build modern countries? I think not.

If the western world could get off its ass and move away from using oil/gas (which would be exceptionally easy if we had the will to do so) the Middle East would be totally destroyed. They would be rendered totally irrelevant. Once they hit rock bottom, perhaps they could build a civilization that was something more worthwhile than a patchwork of dictatorships, kingdoms, and other assorted tyrannies.

The only reason the US gets "blamed" and hated is because these shieks find it absolutely necessary to fool their populaces into hating the wrong person.

It is popular to point to things like the Kyoto Treaty or the World Bank/IMF as why the US is hated. This is absurd. Is there no room in the free world for a difference of opinion? Is there no tolerance for different beliefs on how global problems can be solved?

The reason we are hated is plain and simple. It is jealousy and it is a tool of subjugation. It is basic human psychology to give people an enemy to hate in order to distract them from the real enemy.

[kestra]

yeah....America is just misunderstood.......riiight!!!
To suggest that America has no blood on its hands is laughable.

[Frobozz]

Wow. I just realized that Kestra is a Canadian. I was trying to figure out where this animosity was coming from. (not a jab at Canadians in general but I think it validates what Aristotle was saying)

With that being said.. The United States is:

The most powerful, the wealthiest, the most dominant country in the world that can impose its will with either military might or economic dominance. There are so many situations where the United States could totally dominate the situation with unilateral might, the few situations where America has has drawn fire while the times America (countless times) has gone through bilateral means goes relatively unnoticed.

Human nature seems to require the existence of a 'satan' or a 'bad guy'. People like to root for the underdog. With American most of the world has both in one convinient location sitting at the top of the ladder.

Before someone brings it up; Yes there are countries out there that are better than the US in certain areas. Some countries are better at health care for everyone, others produce less pollution, others provide outstanding elementary education. But when you look at the United States you have to remember that our population is around 280 million. No other country that is above us in any of the previously mentioned matters is above us on any international rating... *positive rating that is*

[Pyrosama]

Originally posted by tharun

So Americans, Brits, Poles, Spanish 2 weeks ago, Aussies etc. are you glad the way the War On Terror is progressing? or do you, in retrospect, sleep less safely than you did on the 12 september 2002?

I'm very pleased with the progress of the War on Terrorism. It doesn't matter that we were targets before and they just happened to successfully pull off a major devastating attack (9/11). It is BECAUSE of the devastation of 9/11 that I think it was necessary to begin tightening down on our national security.

Part of this tightening down was forcing the UN resolutions to the point where if the Iraqis did not comply, we were going to strike, and we did. We gave the ultimatum. They didn't abide by the stipulations of the UN resolutions. We went in and bombed their asses. Done deal. What would anyone else expect? We should just say, "Okay, we were just playing..we didn't really mean that we wanted you to comply...just seeing if you would do it if we gave an ultimatum."

I believe what many conservatives believe and that is you can't negotiate with terrorists. The whole premise behind that mindset is that when you negotiate out of fear of losing innocent lives, you have just given in to the whole concept of terrorism because you are reinforcing their total belief system...that fear will gain their desired result. It would only serve to spread the practice further as it will be proven effective. I'd rather lose lives fighting against this practice rather than continually lose innocent lives because we failed to extinguish it.

We Americans have shown the world that fucked up attacks on us are not going to be downplayed. We don't negotiate with terrorists and for THAT I am proud. I am even more proud that we invaded Iraq and captured Saddam's sorry ass. Now he can be held accountable for all his heinous crimes.

I too feel bad for the innocent Muslim people who have been affected by this war and the families here in the US who have lost loved ones during the war, but change doesn't happen over night, and good, quality change doesn't happen without suffering and a lot of hard work and support from neighboring countries who care.