Gay Marriages

[Graeblyn]

Originally posted by Jabriol
I can't figure out their rhetoric. How does allowing gays to marry damage marriage between heterosexual couples? I can understand if they feel that homosexuality is sinful and that the government should not respect a sinful coupling. I completely disagree, but it's consistent at least. I just can't see any connection between what they say they're protecting, which is heterosexual marriage, and what they're fighting against, homosexual marriage. Do they think that because the option to marry another person of the same sex exists, people will not get married to someone of the opposite sex? Maybe in a vanishingly small number of cases but not to any significant degree.

I think the reality is what you describe:

"they feel that homosexuality is sinful and that the government should not respect a sinful coupling"

However, conservatives want to avoid getting into a religious debate. They have been very careful over the last few years to cultivate what Bush calls "Compassionate conservatism" and what he has touched on even in his most recent comments that the marriage debate should be compassionate and tolerant of all people. Given that they have hamstrung themselves so severely, they really cannot come right out and SAY that this is about a sincerely held belief that homosexuals are sinful. In fact, I think a lot of conservatives sincerely do feel that tolerance of homosexuality, no matter how they feel about it personally, is a moral imperative (Christian Tolerance and all that, you know).

So, they have to use the usual code phrases for attacks on gays, women's rights, single parents, etc. I'm not saying that people who express concern about family values and the santity of the tradition nuclear family are ALWAYS using such terms as cover for gay bashing and anti-feminism, but couching the debate this way is a very effective way for conservatives to avoid coming off as intolerant or as violating the seperation between church and state.

[Sier]

Okay, I try to look at it from this angle. Take it how you will.

I'll use this scenario as an example:
If a man was standing atop the empire state building, about to jump down to his death, would you try to talk him out of it, or do what you can to save him, even if he did not want your help?

Most people would step in and try to save this man's life, even if he was not thankful for it later. Why? Because it is the right thing to do.

I can't speak for all Christians, but by making gay marriage illegal, they believe they are doing this exact same thing. Their interpretation of the bible causes them to believe that homosexuality is a sin, and people who live in sin go to hell by their view. They actually believe that they are saving lives. It may be a few, but according to them, if they save even just one single life, it's worth it.

Yes, some of those people picketing around the white house are bluntly prejudice. They don't give a crap about God or the bible. But for the majority of Christians, whether you believe it or not, they are actually trying to do the right thing in their mind, whether you think it's right or not.

So before you call them bigots, or discriminatory, think about it. I'm not saying that they're right for doing the things they do, but it is certainly not because they hate gay people.

[Kharum]

Originally posted by Sier
I can't speak for all Christians, but by making gay marriage illegal, they believe they are doing this exact same thing. Their interpretation of the bible causes them to believe that homosexuality is a sin, and people who live in sin go to hell by their view. They actually believe that they are saving lives. It may be a few, but according to them, if they save even just one single life, it's worth it.

That easily takes credit for being the stupidest thing I've read all week (just re-reading it is causing my IQ to drop). Hell, if they were really interested in reducing sin, they'd allow same-sex marriage so that same-sex couples could engage in homosexual acts without also becoming guilty of fornication. Seems logical enough to me.

But for the majority of Christians, whether you believe it or not, they are actually trying to do the right thing in their mind, whether you think it's right or not.

Hence the old adage that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Sier]

Eorick, stay out of the forum if you want to start a flame war. Take this discussion seriously for once and state your own opinion without saying "You are a stupid doo doo head." I posted my opinion, you post yours. But leave my intelligence out of it, rather than wanting to start a childish banter. It would be nice to keep this forum from degenerating into a "You're more stupid" "No you're more stupid" whinefest like it did last time you argued, so leave the insults somewhere else.

[Kharum]

Originally posted by Sier
Eorick, stay out of the forum if you want to start a flame war. Take this discussion seriously for once and state your own opinion without saying "You are a stupid doo doo head." I posted my opinion, you post yours. But leave my intelligence out of it, rather than wanting to start a childish banter.

Sier, learn to distinguish between "you're stupid" and "you just expressed an opinion that I found to be remarkably stupid." The first is an insult. The second should be taken as a challenge to actually make an attempt to back up what is, on the surface of it, a pretty silly and not-very-well-thought-out statement.

[Sier]

1. I didn't say it was my opinion. I explained why Christians think that. So calling my opinion stupid (which I didn't give), doesn't make much sense.

2. There are at least 1000 ways in which you can achieve a debate victory without insults.

3. Most threshers that have the same opinions as me don't even post here, because all it amounts to is you running in and screwing a perfectly good discussion up with verbal diariah(sp?), so unless you want a meaningless victory because everyone is too sick of hearing it to post, then show some manners.

[Kharum]

Originally posted by Sier
1. I didn't say it was my opinion. I explained why Christians think that. So calling my opinion stupid (which I didn't give), doesn't make much sense.

All the more reason for you not to get bent out of shape when said opinion is taken to task. And let's face it, it was a moronic idea. If people who believe homosexual acts are sinful really think that forbidding same-sex marriages will somehow save people by (for God only knows what reason) keeping them from engaging in such acts, they should really go out and do the world a favor and volunteer themselves for brain atrophy research.

2. There are at least 1000 ways in which you can achieve a debate victory without insults.

Yeah, and I reserve all 1000 of those ways for opinions which aren't so obviously moronic.

3. Most threshers that have the same opinions as me don't even post here, because all it amounts to is you running in and screwing a perfectly good discussion up with verbal diariah(sp?), so unless you want a meaningless victory because everyone is too sick of hearing it to post, then show some manners.

In my time posting on these boards I (as in me, not my opinions) have been accused among other things of hating America, of being a liar and attempting to deliberately deceive people, of being a moron, of drowning puppies, of being naive, of being an idealist and of being a liberal(). Well, okay, maybe I wasn't accused of drowning puppies, but I'm sure some of you bastards out there were thinking it! You don't see it keeping me away.

[Arethesus]

Ok for starters, let me just say that I am in favor of Gay marriages as you will see later in my post. But lets start with the issue of religion. Individuals are saying, "God stated this, or god stated that," but honestly, are you God? Do you personally know God? And if you do, tell him to let me hit the lottery otherwise, I don't think, no matter what religion, you have the right to speak for a God.

The dispute about the Bible, the Bible was written by humans, not God. Religions were formed by individuals to worship a god, god didn't start any religions. Religion is a coordinated group of individuals expressing the same belief in a higher power, as well as divinations through the centuries.

Now on to gay marriages. Why shouldn't two individuals be allowed to be married, whether they are the same sex or not. It is completely unconstitutional to forbid a civil marriage between to individuals, because it promotes prejudice based upon matter of sexual interest. Most individuals can agree with me today, racism is shunned in *MOST* places, it should be shunned in all, but there are some Conservative dickheaded close-minded individuals. However, for example if I say to a person of the opposite ethnic background as myself, you can't marry someone of my race, because we are not the same race. Completely ridiculous, Huh??? Yes it is. Love is not bound to preference of sex, therefor, if two individuals love each other that much they should be allowed to be wed.

As for the sacracity of marriage, which is a hot topic. Marriage is no longer sacred now a days. My nextdoor neighbor cheated on his wife with another lady, and then his wife cheated on her husband, with the husband of the lady that her husband cheated on. Really sacred, huh?

Anyways, there is no point why individuals shouldn't be allowed to be wed based on sexual preference.

[Grantref]

Originally posted by Sier
Okay, I try to look at it from this angle. Take it how you will.

I'll use this scenario as an example:
If a man was standing atop the empire state building, about to jump down to his death, would you try to talk him out of it, or do what you can to save him, even if he did not want your help?

Most people would step in and try to save this man's life, even if he was not thankful for it later. Why? Because it is the right thing to do.

I can't speak for all Christians, but by making gay marriage illegal, they believe they are doing this exact same thing. Their interpretation of the bible causes them to believe that homosexuality is a sin, and people who live in sin go to hell by their view. They actually believe that they are saving lives. It may be a few, but according to them, if they save even just one single life, it's worth it.

Yes, some of those people picketing around the white house are bluntly prejudice. They don't give a crap about God or the bible. But for the majority of Christians, whether you believe it or not, they are actually trying to do the right thing in their mind, whether you think it's right or not.

So before you call them bigots, or discriminatory, think about it. I'm not saying that they're right for doing the things they do, but it is certainly not because they hate gay people.

Ok, so your position is that homosexuality is sinful and that the government should not bless sinful unions. As I've said before, I can understand that, if not agree with it.

That said, however, I don't see any utility in trying to preach at someone to give up their life of sin, or try to make their life more difficult (i.e. by preventing them from marrying the person that they love), when their predisposition to that supposed sin is biologically based.

[Isaviel]

I agree Kainier I think it will go on forever because everyone has an opinion on it. I personally don't think religion has anything to do with marriage or love. Marry who you want. If you love that person and you feel strong enough that you want to marry them then why not?

You have to keep in mind too when you say God gave this and God gave that ... which God? There are so many beliefs of several different Gods.

I personally don't believe in a God and when someone says well you need to believe in something or someone needs to believe in something because it helps to believe in something then I think why not just believe in yourself?

Go Gay Marriages! Be happy!