Rachel Dolezal lies about being black. Leads NAACP chapter. Teaches Africana class.

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Originally Posted by Sier

I'm not ignoring you. I just don't have hours of time to go looking up statistics on African American Crime...etc. I'm fairly confident on what will turn up.

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This type of ideology is part of the problem, and part of the attitude that's associated with white privilege. Also, when I said research historical events. Their are strains of ideas that you espoused that lead me to believe that you don't believe any of these events happened. This is kind of akin to creation versus evolution. One is more scientific based.

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Originally Posted by Sier

What My post earlier is alluding to is: Several of these issues are not racially based, but class based. Also, A certain race should not receive preferential treatment just because they are white or black. If you show preferential treatment to African Americans to "Lift them up by their bootstraps", you are then persecuting white people.

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This again goes back to the creationist and evolutionist argument. You can't deny historical events, and their impacts upon groups of people, ala colonialism, etc... Also by your logic, should the indigenous populations of America reject their checks from the events akin to the Trail of Tears, the slaughter of their food supply (Buffalo's) etc..

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Originally Posted by Sier

What we do want to ensure is that people are being treated fairly, held accountable for their actions in a fair manner, and given the same chances everyone else has.

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You keep committing bad logic by never answering my questions about how people can be treated fairly when the laws and some institutions are intrinsically racist?

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Originally Posted by Sier

I fail to see entirely how one does not have the same chances just because of the fact that they are African American. I do see how one might not have the same chances because they belong to a certain economic ladder.

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America was built on Race and Economics. From the early Irish, English, and Scottish immigrants until the current debate about America's immigration policy. If you weren't the ruling ethnic group, by default you were limited in your upward mobility regardless of your merit or hard work. But again, you failed to answer many of the other questions that I raised in previous post, and furthermore scantly acknowledge historical events that have major implications. It's hard to have meaningful advancements when such events are neglected.

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Originally Posted by Sier

I realize you may feel that that statement is splitting hairs, but it is vital to solving the problem. As long as people look at the current issues in society as racially motivated rather than issues of opportunity/class, correct resolutions will not be applied.

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You're making assumptions now, because I don't think we are any closer than when we started this thread, which is sad; because I completely understand your perspective, and how others like you can arrive there. Inversely, yours and others dismissive rhetoric, hasty generalizations, and an overall unwillingness to entertain another American's plight is counterproductive, and widens the divide.

You've made sweeping claims on morals. You've made claims on crime etc... Let me tell you that most reasonable people of most ethnic and racial backgrounds desire an opportunity to provide their offspring a safe environment to raise their kids and family. They desire to assimilate into the greater society.

Last, one can't truly solve the problem without some understanding of the power structures of Race, Class, Ethnicity, Religion, Gender, and how they're used in society.

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Originally Posted by Sier

If we want to play the race card to further ourselves, I think the Undocumented Mexicans who live here will have a full deck.

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Immigration now, is this another one of your red herrings?

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Originally Posted by Kailen

Red, I'm sorry that you're so angry. I'm sorry that you weren't able to research any of the historical and current facts that contribute to the generational degradation within communities of color and poor whites. I'm also sorry that much of your previous post was filled with many hasty generalizations and appeal to authorities. I don't think that's a fertile environment for an informative exchange of ideas.

Last, I will agree that some things are self inflicted, but many things simply are not. It's the result of bad legislation, refusal of capital, and underfunding education.

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All I'm reading is "I still don't have the numbers to argue the points you made."

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Originally Posted by Red Syns

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Some people wont comprimise regardless of the ingo that you show them. You haven't checked into of the things that where mentioned. So why go further. Ill tap out, consider you a lost.

Kailen - What would be your idea of solving racial inequalities?

You sound like you have alot of ideas, and I'd truly like to hear them. I think we're both agreeing that there are problems, but we are disagreeing as to the location and cause of the problems. But it's no doubt to either of us that problems exist, and they affect African Americans largely. In my opinion, it's due to economic status.

Are there certain laws you would like to see done away with?
Are you wishing that there were certain boons provided to the African American community simply due to their race?

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Originally Posted by Sier

Kailen - What would be your idea of solving racial inequalities?

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Again Sier, you're evading questions, and lacking effort into researching past events. That's borderline insulting.

But hey, You are committed to a better world right?

*throws in the towel*

I'm not insulting you, and I'm only halfway disagreeing with you.

People shouldn't get handouts because they are black or white, they should get handouts, to a degree, if they are impoverished and genuinely need the support.

People shouldn't be punished because they are black or white, but they should be punished in accordance with their actions, and show the same mercies afforded to everyone.

People shouldn't be disallowed to reap the merits of their work if they are black or white, but they should be allowed in equality to pursue the career path of their choice.

It's very easy to hear a racial or feminist movement preach equality, and then say "Yea...we need this and this and this boon to get there." No. That's not equality, that's a handicap. You promote equality by removing hurdles and promoting moral character to society as a whole.

Regrettably, the more society removes the teachings of Christ from our set of principles, the harder it will be for those hurdles to be removed. There are so many simply taught, but often difficult to apply concepts which would eradicate these hurdles altogether. If the Golden Rule was adhered to by 100% of society, I can't see how any of the previously discussed issues would remain issues.

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Originally Posted by Sier

It's very easy to hear a racial or feminist movement preach equality, and then say "Yea...we need this and this and this boon to get there." No. That's not equality, that's a handicap. You promote equality by removing hurdles and promoting moral character to society as a whole.

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I don't understand what you're saying here. Anti-racists, Marxists or feminists aren't just 'preaching equality' they're arguing against oppression or institutionalized inequality (hurdles). By arguing that hurdles should be removed, they are arguing for equality. Because hurdles can't just be removed as they are so economically, socially and structurally entrenched, sometimes demands for reforms sound like demands for "boons" - especially if you don't recognize that there are inequalities.

A person doesn't have to be interested in examining social inequalities, but by choosing to be ignorant, a person who proposes 'common sense' solutions to entrenched and complicated issues, actually just sounds ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Sier

Regrettably, the more society removes the teachings of Christ from our set of principles, the harder it will be for those hurdles to be removed. There are so many simply taught, but often difficult to apply concepts which would eradicate these hurdles altogether. If the Golden Rule was adhered to by 100% of society, I can't see how any of the previously discussed issues would remain issues.

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Yeah, so who is Utopian then?

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Originally Posted by Sier

It's very easy to hear a racial or feminist movement preach equality, and then say "Yea...we need this and this and this boon to get there." No. That's not equality, that's a handicap. You promote equality by removing hurdles and promoting moral character to society as a whole.

Regrettably, the more society removes the teachings of Christ from our set of principles, the harder it will be for those hurdles to be removed. There are so many simply taught, but often difficult to apply concepts which would eradicate these hurdles altogether. If the Golden Rule was adhered to by 100% of society, I can't see how any of the previously discussed issues would remain issues.

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In an ideal world, people would interact without regard for race, skin color, hair color, eye color, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. You know where we can find something that, if it doesn't perfectly reach that, certainly approximates to it? The internet. Chatting with people on citizen is perfectly race-agnostic (not counting in-universe racism, which is completely different from what probably should be called "skin colorism"), because we honestly *do not know* whether you're white or black. That's how to make things fair.

Let's abolish face-to-face interaction as a means of promoting equality.

Only half joking...

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Originally Posted by Kailen

Thank you Ari,:heartbeat

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=)

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Originally Posted by Malacasta

Damn! It's not often I agree with Ari. Let me remember this date.

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=)

To Sier and Red Syns:

I'm not placing blame or saying there is some kind of nefarious plot afoot to keep black people down. I'm simply talking about the reality of the situation RIGHT NOW for a black man trying to rise above his situation. Those severe barriers to success are real and things will never improve if we ignore them.

Discarding some of those problems because they are a factor of class/economics gets us nowhere. Of course economic class is a major factor. So what? Ultimately, it is almost entirely about economics. But that doesn't change the situation at all.

Sier: Your comparison of Morgan Freemen vs. the tatted up white guy is so extreme that it is not relevant. What is relevant is two people who walk in the store whose only difference is their skin color. Then ask yourself your same question: "Who do your eyes gravitate towards?" It doesn't matter why. It doesn't matter if the store owner was robbed 10 times in a row by black dudes. It still means that 11th black dude suffers the negative ramifications of that, even if he is a super great dude.

I don't blame the store owner for his biases that are based on his experience. But it still sucks for the black shoppers who aren't criminals, doesn't it?

Some people seem to be getting defensive about all those hurdles that black people face. Why? Nobody is blaming you for them. I'm relatively certain you played no role in creating those problems. But those PROBLEMS EXIST.

I'm a white, 43 year old man. I have had so many tremendous advantages throughout my entire life because of my race and my class that I could not even begin to list them. I continue to have tremendous advantages. Here's a huge one:

Over the last few years I've been building up the business of Frogdice. When I meet with angel or VC investors, they are about 95% white males. My task is tremendously easier because I am also a white male and they are comfortable dealing with someone like me. I'm already "in the club."

White privilege is real and it is significant. It doesn't mean we should pass laws to try and counter it. That will never work. But we should at least be aware of it whenever we think about race.

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Originally Posted by Sier

A certain race should not receive preferential treatment just because they are white or black.

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Well that's a nice dream, but white people already get preferential treatment to a massive degree as I've already outlined in previous posts.

Let us not forget it was this point that I was addressing:

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Originally Posted by Sier

I think it would be *easier* to get through my professional life as a black man.

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There is absolutely no way that would be even close to true. A black man has a FAR harder road than a white man in virtually every single possible case, for the reasons I already listed.

What few benefits a black man might have because of his race are not only minimal but occasionally bring their own disadvantages. Hiring quotas can become hiring caps in practice, and the perception of being a "quota hire" makes such people the first to get laid off and unlikely to get promotions.

I don't feel guilty that I've received so many advantages in life because I am a white man. The advantages are nothing to be ashamed of nor did I create them. But they ARE advantages and to deny them would be foolish.