I read this and just wow.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...html?ref=media
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I read this and just wow.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...html?ref=media
I usually don't like the title of "gender traitor" but in this case it fully applies. Wow, that's so insulting on so many levels. Yeah, those women thought they can serve along men without getting raped, what were they thinking? And obviously anyone who wants to fix the problem is an idiot. *eye roll*
This is one of those times when somebody has said something badly, but is still accurate. You might disagree with her words, but she's right that putting female soldiers alongside male soldiers, while they are in extremely stressful situations should have made people consider the possibility of these kinds of numbers. D o I think it's right? No. Should those who commit such acts be punished? Yes. Am I surprised? No.
Does this mean we should stop women from going to the front lines? Maybe. It's an issue and being PC about it is not going to deal with it. If it was something that a reasonable, respectable solution could be found for, then it wouldn't be happening in the first place. So yes, people are going to have to acknowledge that if it continues, there will be more.
I'm not defending her, because quite frankly, I don't think she needs defending. She's stated a rather obvious conclusion. Something that, anybody who is going to be reasonable about the situation could have foreseen. She's not a gender traitor. She's simply pointing out that A) Feminists wanted to be warriors and victims at the same time (something that most people joke about in regards to topics other than this one) and B) Men and Women in violent situations, under stress, in close proximity, where there is sexual deprivation (due to shifts, being away from lovers, etc.) and sexual tension - and believe me, in the military there is sexual tension ALL the time - then you will have an increase of sexual assaults.
War is a pretty carnal and primitive place. We send boys there and tell them to kill and be heartless about it. In the past, Rape and Pillage has just been a part of that horrible horrible place. I agree we should have seen this coming when we sent our daughters out to join them. It's a fool that thinks you can turn boys into cavemen and expect that every one of them is going to retain their civilized sensibilities when it comes to everything but mowing down Iraqis.
That said, I would expect my son to conduct himself honorably, and I expect all fathers would. I would also be outraged if my daughter was sexually assaulted while in service. I hope I never have to deal with that personally.
I call bullshit on any sort of argument that says "Well, we should have seen it coming."
Let's see if people can spot the bullshit and sexism if I change things a little bit.
"Some things are true even if they are not politically correct; the existence of white racism towards black people is one of them. Obviously in any society where you put black people next to white people and allow them to mingle freely, inevitably there would be some white people who would be extremely racist towards black people, would not hire them and would treat them as subhuman. Am I saying all white people are like that? No. Am I saying racism is good? No. But the truth is that these things are inevitable so maybe we should have thought about these things before allowing a mixed race society. If you want to let black people live in neighborhoods where there is a high density of white people, then you should expect white racism coming. I'm not defending racism I'm just saying some basic facts."
Racism is a completely separate issue, psychologically and historically. If you have 40 lonely men on a submarine who haven't had anything to do for months on end and haven't seen another woman for that same amount of time, I'm not saying it's going to happen, but for safety sake you -should- expect it to happen. Yes, the men serving in the military should know better and theoretically they should be better people than that. But there is always going to be someone who is serving of questionable morale who is going to spring on that opportunity when it arises, if it does arise.
Would you walk through an alley in the Bronx in the middle of the night with $3000.00 dollars in your pocket? Would you walk through a dog fighting pit with pants stuffed with bacon? Would you let a complete stranger babysit your kids? There is a vast gulf of difference between naively believing humans are without fault, and there is setting expectations. Should we expect there never to be an issue of rape in the military while women serve? No. It's going to happen. It's part of why people were set against women serving in the military for centuries. When it happens it should be punished (harshly). It's quite silly that someone would be given flak over stating it's going to continue to be a problem. If anything, she should have just phrased her words better.
Ensure a decent mix of men/women on the front lines, let them have consensual sex with whomever they please when they're not patrolling/whatever.
Maybe I'm naive, but would that not help to solve it?
Or course, rape isn't usually about sex, but aggression and power, but at least you'd take sexual frustration out of the heady cloud of chaos which no doubt builds.
I think another problem to consider with having more people sexually active on the front lines is that it could create more issues with jealousy and competition. I don't think that kind of thing is good for morale and maintaining discipline. I can't really say, though. Maybe things are like that already as it is, and people handle it. It's definitely a situation beyond my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by khaltek
Gromgor, long time no speak! I’m addressing most of my questions to you if that’s okay?
You say:I’ll answer this with a comment from a female defence force member:http://battleland.blogs.time.com/201...#ixzz1mSfrrVXyQuote:
putting female soldiers alongside male soldiers, while they are in extremely stressful situations should have made people consider the possibility of these kinds of numbers.
You say:Quote:
Correlating women in combat and levels of rape and sexual violence in the military are wholly inaccurate and inflammatory at best. Less than a quarter of reported rapes occur in theaters of military operations and combat zones. 75% occur at US military installations around the world. In addition, half of sexual trauma survivors being treated by the Veterans Administration are men. Being in an all male unit does not protect service members from sexual predators. Rape and sexual violence do occur in units without women.
Analogies come off badly, but I really can’t help but wonder why it’s no surprise that a stressed and sexually deprived man would rape a friend, whereas if this same stressed and combat trained man shot a friend, that there would be surprise. I can only conclude that you think that is unsurprising that rapists don’t consider rape to be a violation of a friend or colleague worth restraining themselves from - is this because you have no faith in men, or you think rape is trivial?Quote:
Do I think it's right? No. Should those who commit such acts be punished? Yes. Am I surprised? No.
You say:Why is your assumption that because rape happens in situations where people expect men to rape (as you clearly do), rarely punish the rape, and even turn a blind eye to rape, the only way to stop it is to remove women from the equation? How would this help the men who are raped and assaulted? How would this stop the rapes of women that happen on military bases nowhere near any fields of battle?Quote:
Does this mean we should stop women from going to the front lines? Maybe. It's an issue and being PC about it is not going to deal with it. If it was something that a reasonable, respectable solution could be found for, then it wouldn't be happening in the first place. So yes, people are going to have to acknowledge that if it continues, there will be more.
You say:You’ll have to explain to me what this means. Why should wanting to be a soldier mean you have to accept being raped by a colleague?Quote:
Feminists wanted to be warriors and victims at the same time (something that most people joke about in regards to topics other than this one)
You say:This is a defeatist argument. Since male soldiers are also raped, removing women won’t do anything to address the problem.Quote:
Men and Women in violent situations, under stress, in close proximity, where there is sexual deprivation (due to shifts, being away from lovers, etc.) and sexual tension - and believe me, in the military there is sexual tension ALL the time - then you will have an increase of sexual assaults.
I was interested to read an article that discussed rape in prisons (amongst other things) - HT Andrew Sullivan. The quotes below don’t have anything to do with war, but they are about men in stressful situations.
http://nplusonemag.com/raise-the-crime-
This quote demonstrates how contemptuously prison authorities treat rape:
This quote demonstrates just how widely spread the rape in prison issues is:Quote:
Roderick Johnson, a petty thief who was attacked by his roommate shortly after arriving at a Texas prison. Johnson asked to be transferred to a different section of the facility, and got his wish. But news of Johnson’s physical availability had spread throughout the complex—after you’re raped once, you’re marked—and he was soon enslaved by a gang. In addition to passing Johnson around among themselves, Johnson’s new overseers sold his ass and mouth to a variety of clients for $3 to $7, a competitive enough price that it resulted in multiple rapes every day for the eighteen months that Johnson spent in prison. When he went to the authorities, they laughed and told him to “fight or fuck.”
So here is another situation where men rape when they are deprived of consensual sexual interactions and live in stressful situations. That no women are present doesn’t stop the rape. That they are already being punished isn’t stopping the rape.Quote:
For 2008, for example, the government had previously tallied 935 confirmed instances of sexual abuse. After asking around, and performing some calculations, the Justice Department came up with a new number: 216,000. That’s 216,000 victims, not instances. These victims are often assaulted multiple times over the course of the year. The Justice Department now seems to be saying that prison rape accounted for the majority of all rapes committed in the US in 2008, likely making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women.
Why isn’t rape education an attempt at a reasonable solution? Why haven’t you commented on the fact that rapes (of men and women) are barely punished historically (in prison or the defence forces), and that a change in procedure here might have some impact? Since the defense force is asking for funding to help create these attempts at solution in what sense are Liz Trotta’s comments useful?
Frankly it strikes me that you think that rape is somehow natural and therefore excusable or predictable. This is a massive insult to just about every man I’ve ever come across - who would no more consider raping a woman than they would flaying their child alive. If there are some subsections of society that turn a blind eye to rape, then there is an issue with the way those subsections of the community treat rape, and not with the fact that women have the gall to exist in that environment.