Modern Islam... what can you say?

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Originally posted by leira
That doesn't exactly sound like an apology to me.

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You're apologizing for Islam, saying the followers would be doing shit just as nuts if they were Christians or Jews or Hindus. You're saying it's the followers, not the religion. I can't believe I have to explain these very understandable things, especially when you're the one who said them.

You know, I find it laughable that all you people posting here who clearly hate the Bible claim to have such authoritative understanding of it.

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Originally posted by anthson
You know, I find it laughable that all you people posting here who clearly hate the Bible claim to have such authoritative understanding of it.

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Speaking for myself, it's more a problem of disbelief than hate. On top of that, I find it laughable that religious people assume agnostics/atheists/whatever don't know anything about the bible. Pathetic.

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Originally posted by anthson
You're apologizing for Islam, saying the followers would be doing shit just as nuts if they were Christians or Jews or Hindus. You're saying it's the followers, not the religion. I can't believe I have to explain these very understandable things, especially when you're the one who said them.

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If it's somehow not clear, I want Islam to vanish forever, probably even more than you do.

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Originally posted by anthson
You know, I find it laughable that all you people posting here who clearly hate the Bible claim to have such authoritative understanding of it.

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And I find it laughable that a man who believes his wife has a divine duty to be submissive to him is posting about the evils of Islamic misogyny.

Once again you miserably fail in your understanding of fundamental differences between religions. Do you have any idea how public your ignorance is? Years ago I'd have bothered to make a futile attempt at educating you, but the fact is you don't know the differences and don't care to. You don't know what I believe, what the Bible teaches, or what the differences are between it and modern Islam. This makes you uneducated, which wouldn't be such a crime if your mouth wasn't so insufferably large on the topic.

What's great though is that everyone who knows better than you is given a constant view of your lack of understanding. I don't even have to explain it for everyone. You just keep on posting and proving someone else's point at the same time.

One more, and I lock the thread.

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Originally posted by Aevar
I think we were talking past each other. I was speaking of Judaism and the Torah, and not the Biblical Old Testament.

Anyway, I still don't think the two religions compare. The Torah goes into great depth with its crime and punishment, and it is still followed to the letter by the Hasidim and other orthodox Jews. However, their strict adherence to the Torah does not lead to executions or flogging.

And stoning is in Islam:

Volume 2, Book 23, Number 413:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar : (adulterer stoned)

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 421:
Narrated 'Aisha: (adulterer stoned)

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 860:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani: (adulterer stoned)

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195:
Narrated Jabir: (adulterer stoned)

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That is a bit misleading. Hadith is not a part of Quran and it is not considered a part of the holybook. And the law for stoning appears in Toarh. But these are minor points. If Jews and Muslims want to stick to the real teachings of the their religion, they both should stone adulterers.

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Originally posted by Xywalan
Ros, read the passage:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+6&version=NIV

Bible makes it clear that LORD approved of their actions. Besides, there are other instances of genocide in the OT as well. This is not the only one.

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I'm familiar with the passage. But the thread was discussing a legal system and ongoing laws for the punishments for crimes; this passage is an act of war. See previous post.

Is this thread arguing ancient history of every religion as a justification of MODERN atrocities by Middle Eastern Islamic nations?

I don't see how even RECENT history holds any bearing over how we as a world community view our actions today.

The Greatest Generation, in WWII carpet bombed Germany in "The Good War" but our efforts in Iraq accidently kill a few hundred civilians and we begin talking of "warcrimes".

Obviously a little time changes everything for Western civilization, but much of the "Third World" and even "Industrialized" Islamic Nations still live in a barbarous, backward manifestation of civilization.

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Originally posted by Tartun
our efforts in Iraq accidently kill a few hundred civilians and we begin talking of "warcrimes".

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Please provide a source that states ONLY 'a few hundred civilians' have been killed.

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Originally posted by Xywalan
If Jews and Muslims want to stick to the real teachings of the their religion, they both should stone adulterers.

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I'm sorry, Xywalan, but you are completely incorrect. According to the Mishnah, the maximum punishment for Lo-Tin-Af (adultery) is strangulation. For any case involving capital punishment, twenty-three judges (opposed to the usual three for lesser crimes) are required for the trial. The judges are obligated to impose rapid death, minimize pain, and leave NO mutilation. Strangulation for adultery required that the two witnesses (required for the case) and the accuser be present. Furthermore, the Gemmorah records that one execution in seventy years should be considered by the council as "runaway murder." The Rabbis went to great lengths attempting to avoid executions wherever possible. The most common punishment was, like I said before, to have the accused drink water that has had the Tetragrammaton dissolved within. If execution was the sentence, then it was carried out by soft cloths attached to two cords which were pulled in opposite directions on the neck, along the attitude of the ears, not the front of the throat, as that would cause unnecessary pain. A couple more relevant points, the two witnesses had to carry out the execution to ensure that they were not being frivolous in their accusation, and also as a final hope for pardon. The witnesses themselves were subject to brutal cross examination and inquiry, and it was required that their testimonies match to the exact hour and description of circumstances in the face of seventy one separate interrogations. The Mishnah and Gemmorah also go into great depth about the character of judges on capital cases, and anyone who had any history of cruelty, temper, or dispensation towards corporal punishment was automatically disqualified for hearing any capital case.

See:
Seder Nezikin/fourth order of Mishna, fourth tractate "Sanhedrin."

Let's get this clear. The Old Testament is NOT the Torah and does not contain Talmud. The Old Testament is Biblical, and for the benefit of Christendom.

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Originally posted by Xywalan
That is a bit misleading. Hadith is not a part of Quran and it is not considered a part of the holybook.

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The Hadith is canon in Islam. Every Muslim is required to observe Sunnah, which is dictated to the Ummah by the Hadith. Observing Sunnah is absolutely mandatory.

From the Quran:
“Whosoever obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allaah” (Surah An-Nisa 4:80),

“But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you (O’ Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission” (Sura An-Nisa 4:65)

“It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decreed by Allaah and His Messenger to have any choice in the matter. If anyone disobeys Allaah and His Messenger he is clearly astray” (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:36).


In conclusion, Judaism does not stone adulterers, and citing Hadith as authoritative in Islam is not misleading.

Study up, young Padawan.

I think Aevar is a pretty cool guy, eh pwnz theologies and doesnt afriad of anything.

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Originally posted by Malacasta
Please provide a source that states ONLY 'a few hundred civilians' have been killed.

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Erm. Logical fallacy. You're asking for proof of something's non-existence, which I know you're smart enough to avoid doing. It'd be a lot easier to just cite sources that quantify things your way.

Or we could not get off topic.

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Originally posted by Tartun
The Greatest Generation, in WWII carpet bombed Germany in "The Good War" but our efforts in Iraq accidently kill a few hundred civilians and we begin talking of "warcrimes".

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Originally posted by Malacasta
Please provide a source that states ONLY 'a few hundred civilians' have been killed.

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Originally posted by anthson
Erm. Logical fallacy. You're asking for proof of something's non-existence, which I know you're smart enough to avoid doing. It'd be a lot easier to just cite sources that quantify things your way.

Or we could not get off topic.

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I am not asking for proof of non existance. I am asking Tartun to provide a source for his claim that 'a few hundred civilians' have been accidently killed in Iraq.

He is the one that made the claim. It's up to him to defend it. It's certainly not off topic to ask someone who is making a claim intended to prove some sort of point to verify the claim.

Would someone just google "iraqi civlian deaths" already.

Thank you please.

I did just that, Rilthyn. Horrifying. 93,345 - 101,862 to date. Absolutely horrifying.

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Originally posted by Aevar
I'm sorry, Xywalan, but you are completely incorrect. According to the Mishnah, the maximum punishment for Lo-Tin-Af (adultery) is strangulation.

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Can you please provide a source? Do you dispute that Torah contains the stoning punishment for the adulterers? As my point is that the followers do not follow Torah, I do not see how the above is relevant to what I post.

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For any case involving capital punishment, twenty-three judges (opposed to the usual three for lesser crimes) are required for the trial. The judges are obligated to impose rapid death, minimize pain, and leave NO mutilation. Strangulation for adultery required that the two witnesses (required for the case) and the accuser be present. Furthermore, the Gemmorah records that one execution in seventy years should be considered by the council as "runaway murder." The Rabbis went to great lengths attempting to avoid executions wherever possible.

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Muslims provide the same type of apologetic response when hard pressed on the barbaric punishment of stoning and it does not redeem them.

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Let's get this clear. The Old Testament is NOT the Torah and does not contain Talmud. The Old Testament is Biblical, and for the benefit of Christendom.

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I admit I am not very familiar with the religions in discussion, but as far as I know, Talmud or Torah are definitely not less "holy" for the Jews than Hadiths is for Muslims.

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The Hadith is canon in Islam. Every Muslim is required to observe Sunnah, which is dictated to the Ummah by the Hadith. Observing Sunnah is absolutely mandatory.

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But Hadith is not holy.

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From the Quran:
“Whosoever obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allaah” (Surah An-Nisa 4:80),

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That just means Muhammad is the leader of the musims. A very convenient order by "God" for the muslims while Muhammad was alive.

As far as I know, Muhammad showed little interest on what was to happen after him. He was the equivalent of modern Joseph Smith who mostly cared about his own power. Of course, these days, the above verses conveniently mean that the muslims should follow their religious leaders.

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“But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you (O’ Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission” (Sura An-Nisa 4:65)


“It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decreed by Allaah and His Messenger to have any choice in the matter. If anyone disobeys Allaah and His Messenger he is clearly astray” (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:36).

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Same. For people who are unfamiliar with Quran I must say that Quran contains a lot of verses like these that are convenient orders for Muhammad. Whenever muslims were not obeying Muhammad, a verse conveniently would appear, forcing them into submission, whenever they refused to fight his wars, a verse would appear to punish them, whenever his wives would get upset because he was fucking just too many women, a verse would appear to fix his martial problems.

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In conclusion, Judaism does not stone adulterers, and citing Hadith as authoritative in Islam is not misleading.

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In conclusion, my point is Jewish holytexts contain instructions for stoning. It is exactly my point that, fortunately, the practicing Jews at the moment do not follow their holybooks.

Yes I absolutely dispute it. The source is in my original post on the matter.
See: Nezikin/fourth order of Mishna, fourth tractate "Sanhedrin.

That's the source. No adulterers are stoned. Stoning is not the punishment for adultery, chenek is the highest punishment for adultery. Chenek means strangulation. The Mishna is the origin of Gemmorah, and Gemmorah is the source code of the Talmud.

The major difference between the punishments in Judaism and the punishments in Islam is that in Judaism degrees of guilt, and corresponding degrees of punishment exist. In Islam, adultery=stoning, and there are no loopholes or mechanisms for mercy. If the accused confesses to adultery under Judaic law, the punishment is divorce and loss of property rights. Seriously. I'm not lying. I'm not just making this up.

If i'm not credible enough then just go do a google of "Are hadith obligatory," and every Islamic scholar with access to the internet will surely reinforce my point. Hadith are Canon.

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Muslims provide the same type of apologetic response when hard pressed on the barbaric punishment of stoning and it does not redeem them.

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And don't paint me as a Jewish apologists either! I'm not Jewish. I was just pointing out the error of your statement regarding Jews and stoning.

Do you even know what stoning in Judaism is? Here is a hint...It doesn't involve throwing rocks.

Stoning in Judaism is carried out by pushing the condemned off of a high platform. You didn't know that did you? But you are still going to argue with me about it aren't you?

Thanks Aevar, I think many of us learned a thing or two in your last few posts. There's just one thing I wanted to point out to you:

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Originally posted by Aevar
Stoning in Judaism is carried out by pushing the condemned off of a high platform.

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That's not the whole story. The first step in stoning is indeed pushing the condemned off a 4 meters high platform. If he is not dead (and odds are you don't die from that height), a big rock is thrown at the his heart (more of a symbolic move) and if that doesn't kill him, the townfolk are allowed to stone him freely.