Muslim World Image

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...DGESTV-MURDER/

First, I'm going to preface this by saying that, yes, I am aware that many (most?) Muslims are peaceful and feel just as outraged over the atrocities being committed by members of their religion. For all intents and purposes, the following only (mostly) applies to the extremists.

So, this guy started a company in an effort to promote a positive Muslim image to the world. This same guy reportedly had a history of physically abusing his wife, and is now apparently guilty of beheading her. Am I the only one to see the irony?

I'd like to start a discussion about what you guys think could be done, if anything, to actually improve the Muslim image. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that the majority of the Western world (and maybe beyond?) consider beheading rather backwards and barbaric. If you're going to kill someone, at least get with the times...

Now, that last statement may seem a bit flippant, but think about it. We're being inundated with pictures, stories, videos, etc. of Muslims waging holy wars (some could say that they haven't ceased warring in the name of their religion since its inception), committing kamikaze mass murders, stoning people to death, treating their women like shit, and beheading. They carry grudges that are thousands of years old... and, again, the holy wars? All of this just screams of backwards, primitive culture. How are they supposed to fit into modern society? How are they supposed to improve their world image?

I honestly think they can't. I don't believe that a culture that STILL thinks this way has a place in world. To put some things into perspective, it wasn't that long ago that the US was mistreating women and could have been considered a backwards culture, etc. (I'm sure many in the world still consider us that way... but, hey, we're judging ourselves and the rest of the world by our own standards, eh? Might actually be a good philosophy topic itself). But, look how far we've come in just a short 200 years. Now look at how far the culture in question has come in the last 2000 years. Actually you could go well beyond 2000. The religion may not have always existed, but that kind of mentality has existed since their civilizations began.

I actually feel sorry that I've come to the conclusions I have. But, I hear reports and read stories and do research on bits and pieces and can't help but come to the conclusions I have. Regardless of what kind of spin people try to put on the stories, the events are still factual. This guy still beheaded his wife. Now, maybe his religion and culture had no influence at all in the crime. Maybe he was simply psychotic and felt compelled to behead her, but I'm too jaded on the subject to believe it coincidence.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it will be approximately 2 hours before someone makes a post announcing that all religions are equally likely to produce violent beheading fanatics, then painting Christianity with the worst possible brush.

Interesting related thing to talk about: the U.K.'s home office banning a fellow EU MP from visiting the U.K. (Geert Wilders) because his mere presence in the U.K. was deemed dangerous to the country's safety (on account of his views).

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Originally posted by Jyn
I honestly think they can't. I don't believe that a culture that STILL thinks this way has a place in world. [/B]

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The trouble that I foresee is the intermingling between cultural behaviour / religion / politics. In the situation with the muslim faith/people it is very difficult to separate anything from the above.

It would be hard to improve the image of the muslim culture without also improving the image of the faith and the political powers that identify themselves with it. The same can be said for the rest. When you make progress on one front someone somewhere takes two steps back on the others.

I am an eternal optimist and I do think it is possible, but it would require a lot of radical changes.

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Originally posted by Gaviani
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it will be approximately 2 hours before someone makes a post announcing that all religions are equally likely to produce violent beheading fanatics, then painting Christianity with the worst possible brush.

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This is certainly possible. That being said, this thread is about Islam, not other religions. It's also been quite a long time since beheading was considered appropriate/the norm in just about any Christian faith I can think of.

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Originally posted by Pae

I am an eternal optimist and I do think it is possible, but it would require a lot of radical changes.

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Definitely. Unfortunately one of my main points is how little they've changed and/or been willing/wanting to change over thousands of years.

Everyone has been hating on Bush for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq... but you know what? Regardless of the man's motives, going in and shaking up the powers that be is the only way I could see there being any chance of any change at all. Part of the reason there has been so little change historically is because anyone so zealous in their beliefs is going to be completely unwilling to compromise, negotiate, admit wrong (because they won't believe they could ever be in the wrong), etc. They see no reason to change.

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Originally posted by Jyn

I'd like to start a discussion about what you guys think could be done, if anything, to actually improve the Muslim image.

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1) Stop treating women like animals.

2) Promote real education, not religious indoctrination.

3) Stop beheading innocent people for fun. Just an idea. Try cow tipping or throwing stuff off a bridge for new late night entertainment.

4) Somehow have the epiphany that the Muslim faith has no greater claim on absolute truth than any other system of belief in the world.

The problem is, all four of those things run counter to their core beliefs. As a result I don't see anything really changing. The image of the Muslim world can only change if they make fundamental changes in their own culture.

Home grown Jihad,

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...E-D2A80C777099


This doesn't help their cause either.

Though I think that the extremist muslim world is dispicable, I'd like to point out that a majority of the people on the planet we live on, or at least the people living on the majority of habitable land, are not too concerned by the actions of Islamic extremists.

Antisemitism, which is pretty much the main motivation for Muslim terrorists, is a widespread philosophy. Almost every nation of the former USSR is plagued by antisemitism, as well as much of the "Western World". The only people who are likely (though I can't confirm this) unaffected by antisemitism are the Asian nations of China and Japan. (likely due to isolationism)

Somehow the Hebrew people have managed to piss off most of the world. Be it a result of their own racial superiority complex, clannish desire to keep everything within the faith, or just a fulfillment of Judeo-Christian prophecy, the fact remains that The United States is among the minority. The few nations that support Isreal. I am of the opinion that we are better for it, however perhaps we are the ass-backward people.

I'm not sure if the problem IS Islam per se. Once upon a time the Arab nations were looked upon as one of the jewels in the crown of civilization. They used to have customs which have no equivilant in western society, such as where an arab landowner, when asked for hospitality by a traveller, was morally (And I think perhaps legally?) unable to refuse it. They also developed the modern numerical system, which is in use throughout the civilized world.

I'm pretty sure they were still muslim back then.

I get the feeling that what's happening in the Muslim world is just an example of what happens when you let the moonbats into government. You can draw a lot of similarities between the actions of extremist muslim regimes and totalitaran regimes like Stalins, hell, even cults like $cientology.

1. Keep the followers stupid.

2. Denounce and demonize anything which has the potential to make you look daft.

3. Back up your policies with intimidation, aggression, and the show of naked force.

I can't believe that I'm the one who's fulfilling Gav's prophecy, but to be honest, if not for Martin Luther and his mob, you'd probably see something very similar in modern western society to what we see in the Muslim world today.

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Originally posted by Tartun
Though I think that the extremist muslim world is dispicable, I'd like to point out that a majority of the people on the planet we live on, or at least the people living on the majority of habitable land, are not too concerned by the actions of Islamic extremists.

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Can you share some foundation for this claim?

The western world is definitely concerned, to an extreme degree, with the actions of Islamic extremists.

Most of Asia is also very concerned with the actions of Islamic extremists. Islamic terrorism is a huge problem in India, Pakistan, many of the former Soviet republics, China, and almost all of southeast Asia. There is enormous fear that muslim extremists might ignite a nuclear war between Pakistan and India, for example.

That represents the majority of the world's population right there. You might want to re-examine that premise. Fundamentalist Islamic terrorism is a huge problem for almost the entirety of the world's population.

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Originally posted by Gaviani
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it will be approximately 2 hours before someone makes a post announcing that all religions are equally likely to produce violent beheading fanatics, then painting Christianity with the worst possible brush.

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I know you're not saying this, but the simple fact is this isn't true. Bhudists believe in the respect for ALL life, from cockroaches to lions to humans and everything in between. I'm sure most of you are familiar with the monk who, to protest the Vietnam war, set himself on fire. It's one of the most famous photos of the 20th centuary and an amazzing gesture of non-violent protest.

Maybe we should be saying that certain religions (Christianity and Islam being probably the most infamous) are prone to attracting the people who're responsible for violent extremist behaviour, not that the religions themselves cause people to be like this. Then look at adressing the problems that cause these people to want a way to chanel their anger/hatred/disilusionment/prejudice etc.

I have worked and do work with many many Muslims and find that they are pretty decent people. I don't think Islam (like Christianity) is best represented by extremists. I think that it's the extremists we see most prominently because, well, that's the point isn't it?

Beheading people, suicidal bombings, oppression- none of these concepts are actually part of the faith of Islam. They are, however, tools used by extremists which are excused (internally) (internally to the groups and individuals themselves) as being committed in the name of the religion. So, it's okay. To them.

If you have interest in this topic, I have recently heard of an episode of a podcast called "Islam for Dummies". It's about an hour long and I've been listening to it and find it interesting. It's a group of guys asking a Muslim some of the questions that one thinks of when they think about Islam. Interesting show.

http://www.thephileasclub.com/2009/0...m-for-dummies/

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Do you ever get tired of thinking in stereotypes and inaccuracies? I know I do, and my knowledge of Islam certainly is vague… but here’s an idea: how about sitting down with a Muslim and asking him all sorts of candid questions? Simple enough, right? But maybe you don’t have a Muslim right next door to ask him yourself. Well, fear not! The Phileas Club is here to help.

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Also, I just wanted to re-iterate that we see what our media wants us to see. You can imagine a Muslim's view of the West if they thought it was all like Alabama, or all Christian priests like rape little boys, or every woman is a hooker. These are about as categorically true as what we take to be "true" about Muslim nations. How many murders, prisoners do we have in North America for violent crimes? The cops can't keep up with internet pedophilia, almost everything they see in the media (and quite frankly everything -I- see in the media) coming from the West is one big downward spiral into hell. Why -wouldn't- they feel their faith is better? A lot of the things highlighted as atrocities are as anomalous to their faith as a faith as the brief list above of Western transgressions unto itself are anomalous of -our- faiths. Both sides need to stop feeling superior, and as a result, no, I don't think their public image is going to improve much because neither side is interested in debasing itself because each is just so justifiably better than the other.

A little objectivity wouldn't hurt.

The sad truth is, there are sadistic lunatics out there. Some of them use 'religion' or 'faith' as a justification of their actions. Honestly, the content of the faith does NOT matter whatsoever to these people. If religion didn't exist those atrocities still would because this has nothing to do about religion or faith. They would simply find another reason whether it be cultural or political or whatever.

Khortez to say that buddhist faith are exempt from this behaviour is a gross misrepresentation. A quick google search of 'buddhist extremists' will generate ~452,000 hits. There are also incredible heroes in a variety of faiths... Christian heroes (William Wilburforce), Hindu heroes (Ghandi), even Islamic heroes as I'll detail below.

While I am a very devout and outspoken Christian and as someone who genuinely looked at the Islam faith, when you take things out of context it would be very easy to justify violence. But then again... you could take Harry Potter out of context and do the exact same thing. When taking the Qu'ran as a whole, I've had trouble justifying / interpreting the actions of extremists as legit.

I will reiterate. This isn't about faith. This isn't about religion.

So to return to the original question, how does one heal the muslim world image (and subsequently is it possible) - that's tough to say. First you need to extract the believers from those who abuse it. Not an easy task.

I did read once in MacLean's (kind of like the Time Magazine for Canada) about a woman who lives in Montreal. She's muslim and she is VERY outspoken against radical islam. She preaches heavily using the Qu'ran against oppression of women and violence. I know she's had a number of attempts on her life by radicals but she refuses any body guards or extra protection (likely cause she knows if she's killed she becomes a martyr).

I hope as more people like this step out from fear, people who come from the culture/faith, the world image could begin to change.

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Originally posted by Pae
when you take things out of context it would be very easy to justify violence.

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It's the moderates that take passages out of context and reinterpret, so that they can reconcile their faith with thoughtful morality. Justification of violence comes about when one doesn't reinterpret, and doesn't take things out of context, and instead reads the book literaly.

It's always amused me that the "extremist" label gets applied to the people that actually just follow what the holy books explicitly say.

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Justification of violence comes about when one doesn't reinterpret...

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Okay, I see what you're saying on that. I would argue that taking something word for word is in fact an interpretation. On top of that, being completely and 100% literal in your reading I would even argue is 100% impossible. We are BIASED individuals and none of us are capable of being objective. No matter what we read, no matter what we experience, we are FORCED to interpret and come to a conclusion.

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...doesn't take things out of context...

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This I'd heavily disagree with.

"Money is the root of all evil" or "The love of money is the root of all evil"

How about Proverbs 20:30
"Blows and wounds cleanse away evil and beating purge the inmost being."

Then you can choose to ignore Matt 22
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "

Even in the Qu'ran there are seemingly conflicting statements like those in the bible. Ones that appear to condone violence and ones that condemn it. By choosing to embrace one and ignore the other, we're choosing a way to interpret the Qu'ran as a whole by elevating one verse above another as more important to your faith.

I would suggest that there are times when things are in fact taken out of context to justify violence. Certainly there are times when that is not the case, but I would not want to over-correct and say that it is always or never the case.

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Originally posted by Tartun
Antisemitism, which is pretty much the main motivation for Muslim terrorists, is a widespread philosophy. Almost every nation of the former USSR is plagued by antisemitism, as well as much of the "Western World". The only people who are likely (though I can't confirm this) unaffected by antisemitism are the Asian nations of China and Japan. (likely due to isolationism)

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Al Qaeda's ideology

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I'm quoting Wikipedia's entry about Al Qaeda because I know that for the most, what they write in this entry is true. Feel free to check other sources.
Some have argued that "without the writings" of Islamic author and thinker Sayyid Qutb "al-Qaeda would not have existed." Qutb preached that because of the lack of sharia law the Muslim world was no longer Muslim, having reverted to pre-Islamic ignorance known as jahiliyyah.

To restore Islam, a vanguard movement of righteous Muslims was needed to implement Sharia and rid the Muslim world of any non-Muslim influences, such as concepts like socialism or nationalism. Enemies of Islam included "treacherous Orientalists" and "world Jewry", who plotted "conspiracies" and "wicked[ly]" opposed Islam.

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While of course the Jewish people are an important part of radical muslim ideology, you need to remember their final goal is to conquer the world and purge all the non-Muslims from it.

Don't fool yourself with antisemetic bullshit, Tartun. A very large portion of Muslims are Semetic themselves.

In addition, there are very large outposts of radical Islam (such as in Pakistan/India, Indonesia, etc.) that has nothing to do with Jews or the country of Israel.

And please don't quote Hamas and Hizbolla ideology as they are not only radical islamic organizations, but also political and nationalistic organizations.

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Somehow the Hebrew people have managed to piss off most of the world. Be it a result of their own racial superiority complex, clannish desire to keep everything within the faith, or just a fulfillment of Judeo-Christian prophecy, the fact remains that The United States is among the minority. The few nations that support Isreal. I am of the opinion that we are better for it, however perhaps we are the ass-backward people.

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Again you are trying to convince yourself something that is inhenerntly incorrect. The problem is with the land rather than with its residents. If Israel was in Greenland, I doubt any radical muslim would have even known what Jews are.

Israel and Jews have little to do with radical Islam - it's just an excuse. It might have started around Zionism, but these days radical islam doesn't focus on Israel but rather against the stronger forces in the world.

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Don't fool yourself with antisemetic bullshit, Tartun. A very large portion of Muslims are Semetic themselves.

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Perhaps I wasn't clear, I do not allow myself to be fooled by antisemitic bullshit, and I lazily used "anti semite" to more specifically target "anti-jewish" ideologies, knowing full well that the hebrew people are only one of the semitic tribes.

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Again you are trying to convince yourself something that is inhenerntly incorrect. The problem is with the land rather than with its residents. If Israel was in Greenland, I doubt any radical muslim would have even known what Jews are.

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This is an absurd statement. We are talking about two Abrahamic religions. They would obviously know who Jews are, because both religions come from the same roots, that being the God of Jacob, Abraham, and Isaac. The Muslims didn't just start fighting Jews and Christians in the past 50-100 years. Do I have to point out the crusades? The Muslims claim that the Christians are the enemy because they break the commandment "Thou shalt not make any graven images" by worshiping Christ as the physical manifestation of God. They claim that Jews are the enemy for killing all the prophets.

It has very little to do with a strip of land besides the anti-Jewish point of view that the Jews shouldn't possess a pulse let alone their own land. Tell me this is about the land the Jews have now, and I'll point you toward the Dome of the Rock... That USED to be the Great Jewish Temple of Solomon.