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Socialized health care hasn't been a "DOOMSDAY SCENARIO" up here in the glorious nation of Soviet Canuckistan, comrade Kailen. :pQuote:
Originally posted by Kailen
You will see the root of the "DOOMSDAY SCENARIO" that Obama is pushing socialized healthcare, amongst other social policy.
Ah yes, you are one of the lucky ones who hasn't had the government dictate what type of care that you, or your loved ones get. Plugging your age into their magical formula to see if treatment is worth giving.Quote:
Originally posted by leira
Socialized health care hasn't been a "DOOMSDAY SCENARIO" up here in the glorious nation of Soviet Canuckistan, comrade Kailen. :p
The "DoomsDay Scenario" I was actually referring too. Is the horror flick that Obama is trying to peddle to the American people. The Porkulus Plan is garbage.
I'm sorry if I was unclear of this previously.
I don't want to derail the thread too much, but nationalized health care in Canada has been a terrible drain on its economic growth. There is no excuse for Canada to be so far behind the USA economically when the two countries have free trade and populaces of extremely similar education levels, cultural backgrounds, etc (not identical, but very close).
Stories are legendary of how terrible health care is in Canada, so I'd say it serves as an excellent example of why we do NOT want such a system, rather than the opposite.
And yes, when the article starts with a specific writer's byline you know its a columnist and not just a straight news article. So that colors it. But as Malacasta noted, I don't know many people who are thrilled with these old-school picks. It smacks of political payback for old timers being willing to back him in the campaign instead of forcing him to run as a complete outsider against Hillary.
I disagree with you. Canada's economy improved measurably (I'll try to find a source for this) when the single-payer healthcare system was implemented, especially in the manufacturing sector. Companies no longer having to supply healthcare benefits to employees resulted in a government pseudo-subsidy, which led to a manufacturing boom.Quote:
Originally posted by Aristotle
I don't want to derail the thread too much, but nationalized health care in Canada has been a terrible drain on its economic growth.
Firstly, for clarification, is GDP/capita the economic measure to which you're referring? If that is the case, according to the International Monetary Fund 2007 information, the GDP/capita (nominal) for the two countries are:Quote:
Originally posted by Aristotle
There is no excuse for Canada to be so far behind the USA economically
(all in USA dollars)
Canada: 43,674.038
United States: 45,725.348
Link
Also note that the USA's economic growth was bolstered in part by a long period of deficit spending on the part of the government, which will likely prove to be unsustainable.
Canadian's don't seem to think so, and we live with it every day. Universal healthcare is so popular in Canada that it's often described as practically being the national religion. There are certainly some horror stories, but there are horror stories with US healthcare as well. Shall we engage in a debate over which system's failings are more "legendary", or instead analyze statistical data regarding the average health of our respective citizens?Quote:
Originally posted by Aristotle
Stories are legendary of how terrible health care is in Canada, so I'd say it serves as an excellent example of why we do NOT want such a system, rather than the opposite.
Yeah, one of the 33,212,696 lucky ones.Quote:
Originally posted by Kailen
Ah yes, you are one of the lucky ones who hasn't had the government dictate what type of care that you, or your loved ones get. Plugging your age into their magical formula to see if treatment is worth giving.
You have some serious misconconceptions about how Canadian healthcare works, which I think is mostly inspired by Republican talking points along the lines of, "Healthcare decisions should be between the patient and their doctor, not the patient and the government" or some such nonsense.
The Canadian government doesn't dictate what kind of care people receive. There are no magical formulas, or formulas of any kind. Let me summarize how it works: I get sick, I see a doctor, the doctor decides what treatment is best for me and I get that treatment. The provice of Ontario health insurance plan pays the bill. End of story. Nothing has to be approved by any bureaucrat, or anyone for that matter aside from the patient and their medical professional.
There are some problems with the system, but the government interfering with the coverage of individual patients isn't one of them, because that doesn't happen.
[EDIT: Removed everything where I slaughtered the Canadian health care system]
I'm removing my whole post to just say this, Snrrub: You are totally right that Canadians treat their health care like religion. That includes the usual irrationality and replacement of facts with emotion.
Health care is the one thing I'd rather not rely on a bunch of workaday clock punching underachievers who aren't good enough to practice medicine in a country where they actually get paid what their work is worth.
Ok, I got sucked in by this comment because it is just so bogus.Quote:
Originally posted by Snrrub
Also note that the USA's economic growth was bolstered in part by a long period of deficit spending on the part of the government, which will likely prove to be unsustainable.
USA's debt is 60.8% of GDP.
Canada's debt is 62.3% of GDP.
While I'm throwing out stats:
<hr>
GDP per capita: USA's is 20% higher.
USA's GDP per capita: $48,000
Canada's GDP per capita: $40,200
<hr>
GDP Real Growth: USA's is double Canada's:
USA: 1.4%
Canada: 0.7%
<hr>
Education Expenditures (this one surprised me):
USA: 5.3% of GDP
Canada: 5.2% of GDP
<hr>
Military expenditures: (how small ours is as a % of GDP surprised me)
USA: 4.06% of GDP
Canada: 1.1% of GDP
<hr>
And this is after a 2+ year energy crisis that has rocked the US economy, on top of a brutal banking and housing collapse.
So yeah, lets not go there.
Canada is an awesome country. But their health care system is an epic fail and a total drag on their economy.
First off there are tons of horror stories. Your line of 1 out of 33 million couldn't be any further from the truth. The fact that Canadian Medicare ques their patients creates a slippery slope of unsatisfied customers within your country.Quote:
Yeah, one of the 33,212,696 lucky ones.
Queuing is the most common form of rationing scarce medical resources. Since the quality of patient satisfaction plays no role in determining incomes or other economic rewards for health care providers and administrators in the public system, patients' time is treated as if it has no value. (Basically go take a seat til we call you whenever we are ready.) This queuing affects many medical services, including access to some specialists, diagnostic testing, and surgery. If you are sick. I'd hate to wait around to get diagnosed.
The next problem that contributes to the horrible health care in Canada is access to Doctors and Medical Technology. In an OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development) report, Canada's access to Computed Tomography (CT) scanners, radiation equipment, lithotriptors, and MRI's were poor. Canada's access was significantly poorer in 3 of the 4, despite spending a full 1.6 GDP on healthcare.
Quote:
You have some serious misconconceptions about how Canadian healthcare works, which I think is mostly inspired by Republican talking points along the lines of, "Healthcare decisions should be between the patient and their doctor, not the patient and the government" or some such nonsense.
The only misconception is the misconception of Canadian Healthcare. Canadian Medicare is unsustainable at it's present course. Unless,Canadians receive less healthcare or more taxes for all the expensive health technologies. It's simple economics, and a good example of opportunity cost (Cost foregone).
The Royal Commission, and its commissioner Roy J. Romanow had no influence on medical care in Canada? Gotcha. Please refer to my previous statement about queuing, doctor access, and technology access. In closing if Canadian Medicare is so great, and so widely accepted. Why are there thousands of people coming to America weekly to get procedures done? Why not have them done in the all providing mother land?Quote:
The Canadian government doesn't dictate what kind of care people receive. There are no magical formulas, or formulas of any kind. Let me summarize how it works: I get sick, I see a doctor, the doctor decides what treatment is best for me and I get that treatment. The provice of Ontario health insurance plan pays the bill. End of story. Nothing has to be approved by any bureaucrat, or anyone for that matter aside from the patient and their medical professional.
Our numbers are at odds with each other. What is your source?Quote:
Originally posted by Aristotle
Ok, I got sucked in by this comment because it is just so bogus.
USA's debt is 60.8% of GDP.
Canada's debt is 62.3% of GDP.
Again, what is your source? In my previous post I cited the IMF database where I got my numbers. Or have you decided to use PPP here to distort the true size of the country's economy?Quote:
Originally posted by Aristotle
While I'm throwing out stats:
GDP per capita: USA's is 20% higher.
The economic crisis has affected Canada's GDP, growth rate and debt numbers as well, albeit to a lesser extent - mostly as a result of regulations imposed by BIG GOVERNMENT :eekQuote:
Originally posted by Aristotle
And this is after a 2+ year energy crisis that has rocked the US economy, on top of a brutal banking and housing collapse.
Yeah, forgive me for not taking your word for it.Quote:
Originally posted by Aristotle
[EDIT: Removed everything where I slaughtered the Canadian health care system]
Riiight. I'm sure you nailed it right on the head, Canadian doctors aren't good enough to move to the United States. It clearly isn't related at all to the fact that there are plenty of other reasons to live in Canada except money. Or the fact that plenty of medical professionals wouldn't want to work in a private system. Seriously, this is the most bullshit thing I've read online this week.Quote:
Originally posted by Aristotle
Health care is the one thing I'd rather not rely on a bunch of workaday clock punching underachievers who aren't good enough to practice medicine in a country where they actually get paid what their work is worth.
The waiting time issue, which is probably the largest problem with Canadian healthcare, is not insurrmountable and is not inherent to public healthcare. Despite the wait times, Canadians still wouldn't even consider going back to a private US-style system.Quote:
Originally posted by Kailen
First off there are tons of horror stories. Your line of 1 out of 33 million couldn't be any further from the truth. The fact that Canadian Medicare ques their patients creates a slippery slope of unsatisfied customers within your country.
Wrong. Patient disatisfaction easily decides the outcome of public elections. This is why Canadian politicians are very sensitive to public demands regarding the healthcare system.Quote:
Originally posted by Kailen
Since the quality of patient satisfaction plays no role in determining incomes or other economic rewards for health care providers and administrators in the public system, patients' time is treated as if it has no value.
This is actually the same problem as above.Quote:
Originally posted by Kailen
The next problem that contributes to the horrible health care in Canada is access to Doctors and Medical Technology.
Canadians can easily afford to maintain the public system unless subject to some horrific and prolonged economic catostrophe orders of magnitude worse than we are currently experiencing.Quote:
Originally posted by Kailen
Canadian Medicare is unsustainable at it's present course.
I never said the Government has never influenced healthcare, I said that the Government isn't involved with the medical treatment of individual patients as it is often portrayed by the opponents of universal healthcare. Government influence on healthcare takes the form of strategic planning, which generally enjoys broad public support for fear of losing votes.Quote:
Originally posted by Kailen
The Royal Commission, and its commissioner Roy J. Romanow had no influence on medical care in Canada?