Australia Day or Invasion Day

Move Australia Day, says Australian of the Year

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The nation was mature enough to have that discussion following the federal government's apology to the stolen generations last year, he said.

"We have to have a date that's more inclusive than January 26, which is the date that's chosen as the landing of the first fleet at Sydney Cove," Prof Dodson told reporters.

"To most indigenous Australians it (Australia Day) really reflects the day on which our world came crashing down.

"Many of our people call it invasion day."

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Personally, I am anti moving Australia Day. Where I live, we have a high % population of Aboriginal people and I don't see them looking on today negatively. My Chinese neighbours across the road have a Australian flag in their Zen garden, next to their decorations for Chinese New Year, and the Aboriginal family next to them has both flags in their yard. Earlier, the two houses and myself (yes drunk) we out on the road singing the national anthem. Our entire street is very multicultural, yet every house has a flag out, or balloons, or something saying 'Happy Australia Day', and I'm about to go join the big street party...

Is political sensitivity getting too far out of hand? Are we too scared to sneeze, lest we offend someone, or is this a real problem we need to address? Granted, from where I'm sitting, there doesn't seem to be a problem but what do other Aussie's think?

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Are we too scared to sneeze, lest we offend someone,

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I don't think sneezing and celebrating the day which brought around the destruction of an entire culture/way of life of a nation are the same thing.

I don't really give a shit one way or the other, countries are conquered/reconquered/settled/abandoned all throughout history, so I honestly don't care, but that argument is a bit weak.

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Originally posted by Belaraiya
Where I live, we have a high % population of Aboriginal people and I don't see them looking on today negatively.

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The whole country getting drunk?

I imagine they feel pretty included.

/trolls

I am against moving the day. It's just as stupid a notion as renaming "B.C." (aka Before Christ) to "B.C.E." (aka Before Current Era) in an attempt to remove Christ from your dating system - you're still counting dates from Christ's birth (okay, the calculation is a bit off, leave that aside), so it makes no difference that you rename it. If you shift Australia Day to some other day, what difference will it make? This country is what it is because of its history. Before 1901, it was not a country. The individual Aboriginal tribes did not turn this land into a country, it was British settlement that led to that. If you don't like that idea, then don't celebrate any holiday based on Australia as a country. Celebrate your paternal great grandfather's birthday - that's more in keeping with tribal ways.

By the way, who is it who actually calls it "invasion day"? Apart from the few who love to get on telly, that is. And, do they call it that... in English? Hmm.

Now, I'm not saying that white settlers were the epitome of goodness and ideal perfection. There's no doubt that there was an aspect of "invasion" to it, and a lot of people did not respect the previous inhabitants or their use of the land. (A lot of people saw the Aborigines as less evolved than themselves - that they were somewhere between monkeys and people.) But there were people, most notably the pastors and missionaries, who went to enormous lengths to prove that they were indeed human, and deserved to be treated as such. (One person comes to mind... probably because I studied his life and work a few years ago. Lancelot Threlkeld, and I can't type that name without my fingers wanting to type Lancelot Threshold, sought to learn the language of the group/s near where he was working, because if you could communicate with them, you could see that they're intelligent.) It's very easy to get a slanted view of history, and nearly impossible to balance it out.

But seriously, what are the alternatives? I've seen "Apology Day" put forward (the day when oh-I'm-so-clever Rudd issued a nearly content-free apology for the Stolen Generation). Yeah, umm... so what? It happened. It's not THAT significant an event that it needs its day commemorated. If you're going to pick on the basis of something so weak, let's just look at the calendar, decide when it'd be most convenient to have a public holiday, and mark it off as... I dunno, "Cultural Diversity Day". It'd be just as meaningful as Apology Day. Alternatively, let's celebrate something that has some real meaning, but only a very few people would understand, like Sausage Roll Day (March 7th). Wait, isn't that what we already have? Hmm. Yeah. Okay.

The damn thing's not even the formation of Australia as a nation. If you want to get technical, it's really "Sydney Day."

But shit, we use it as a celebration of our national identity, which as Belaraiya has put so well, can no longer even be called 'european'. We are a vibrant melting pot of cultures from all over the world, the majority of which are integral contributors to our core values of mateship, hard work, and a fair go for all.

Some butthurt liberal wanker wants to start calling it 'invasion day'? Fair enough, just as soon as the Aboriginies start celebrating 'Genocide day', a day commemorating the day that they wiped out the protognostics which preceded them on this continent.

Tell you what, I won't hold my breath.

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Originally posted by Maelgrim
... our core values of mateship, hard work, and a fair go for all.

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I agree with most of what you said, but not with that bit. :) It's mostly Asians who tend to be prepared to work hard (for instance, look at all those eateries in shopping centers, where the same people - often one family - work there the entire day, every day, six or seven days a week, and there's maybe only three or four people covering that entire time); the Aussie mentality is to be lazy. And proud of it. Let Japan work its people to death, we'll be lazy, and invent stuff to let us keep on being lazy. We'll sit around and expect the gummint to keep us alive, then as soon as we have paying work, we'll scorn those dole bludgers. (I have never been on the dole, but I'm sure there is no shortage of people who have AND who speak scornfully of it.) As an Aussie, I am proud to say that I will spend an hour writing a program that will let me be lazy for ten minutes a day for the rest of the week. We're a creative mob! And besides, it's fun!!

Oh, and Maelgrim? Can I stand beside you and not-hold my breath too? Thanks.

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We are a vibrant melting pot of cultures from all over the world, the majority of which are integral contributors to our core values of mateship, hard work, and a fair go for all.

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As opposed to countries like America and Britain where there’s no cultural melting pot, they don’t value friendship, they don’t work hard, and they oppose a fair go for all? Wasn't I clever to be born here then.

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It's mostly Asians who tend to be prepared to work hard (for instance, look at all those eateries in shopping centers, where the same people - often one family - work there the entire day, every day, six or seven days a week, and there's maybe only three or four people covering that entire time); the Aussie mentality is to be lazy.

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Seriously? Is that right? Can I see your sources?

By the by, how come the thread police ridicule Kestra’s every post, but generalizations, anecdotes, bullshit propaganda and unsourced rubbish like the quotes above get a free pass?

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Originally posted by Malacasta
Seriously? Is that right? Can I see your sources?

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Source: Personal observation, 2003-2009. Chapter 5, if you want to look it up.

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Originally posted by Malacasta

By the by, how come the thread police ridicule Kestra’s every post, but generalizations, anecdotes, bullshit propaganda and unsourced rubbish like the quotes above get a free pass?

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As he confirmed in his reply, it was pretty clear Rosuav was presenting that as his personal opinion based on his own observations. People tend to cut people a little slack when that is clear.

It is when people state opinion as fact that many people object.

I'd go into other legitimate reasons kestra's posts get slaughtered, but no need for me to pile on.

Invasion Day??? What a crock of shit!! I didn't see the "Australian of the Year" handing back his award after saying how offended he felt about Australia Day as a moment in history when his people were invaded.

How long, and for how many generations do you get to winge and complain that your ancestors were done over by someone else? For crying out loud.

Lets get a couple of things straight. And for anyone who cares these are personal opinions and are founded entirely on my interpretation of history.

* If the English hadn't -SETTLED- in Sydney, someone else would have "invaded" somewhere else. Be that the dutch, the spanish, or one of the asian nations. Fact remains Australia as a land was harsh, sparsely populated and undeveloped before 1788.

* European settlement has brought more developement to this continent in the last 220 years than the previous landowners did in the 30,000 years they had it. Sure we were sort of helped a little bit by mass transport, industrialisation, air travel, electricty, internal combustion engines, the internet and globalisation.......but (see next point)

* I think it is fairly safe to say that without "immigration" of the europeans, and later other cultures, most of the indigineous folks currently stomping around loudly would not be living in a world where they get government handouts, housing assistance, education, job assistance and so on.

* Left to there own devices it is entirely probable that Indigenous Australians would still be living in a world where they routinely died at a young age, lived as hunter gatherers and solved conflicts by throwing spears at eachother. (Just look at examples of small isolated cultures discovered over the past 50 years in deep Africa and the Amazon)

* That is of course if someone else hadn't invaded and completely wiped them out.

* And wasn't it Mick "Crocodile" Dundee that said the land doesn't belong to the aboriginals, they belong to the land? (Okay.. that point is a little thin...)

Don't get me wrong. I love that we have an indigineous culture that we can look back on and learn about, but it pisses me off to no end that folks get their knickers in a knot about something that happened over 200 years ago. Go down this path and we'll be in the same boat as the middle east with grudges held over generations, and 1500 years from now some bloke who's part aboriginal (about 0.005% by DNA) will be making a land claim on the block my family has owned since here and now.

These same people are not backword in coming forward when it comes to lining up for government handouts and assistance from the same government that, if they had there way, they would have booted out of the country. Furthermore there are countless examples where existing aboriginal communities struggle to exist in the modern world WITH government assistance let alone without it. Unfortunately winding the clock back 200 years and sticking your head under a rock is not an option.

January 26 is Australia Day. It marks the first "modern" wave of immigrants to this land. It marks the start of progress where this nation can say that despite our youth we are able to count oursleves among the comparatively few countries that have education for the masses (not just the "invaders"), affordable health care, modern facilities including schools/hospitals/transport/utilities, running water (most populated areas anyway). You can't rewrite history. What happened, happened - get over it.

If you don't like it, there is plenty of bushland out there. Grab yourself a stick and a loincloth and go live with the drop bears.

It amazes me how much anger there is towards a group of people who are a tiny proportion of the population, who have 3rd world health and living conditions, who have basically zero impact on anybodies day to day life, who haven't taken anybodies land or anything.

Folks, there are more worthy enemies out there.

I just treat it like any other day these days, I have more interest in Rememberance Day as it has more relevance to me.

I'm not sure exactly where I stand with regards to the indigenous population who may consider Australia Day a celebration of Invasion.

I do however find it ironic that it was foreign interlopers who provided them with a means of joining up disparate groups into a whole to speak out against foreign interlopers.

Then again it wouldn't be Australia if everybody was all on the same page and looking at the same thing.

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Originally posted by Kravenar
Invasion Day??? What a crock of shit!! I didn't see the "Australian of the Year" handing back his award after saying how offended he felt about Australia Day as a moment in history when his people were invaded.

* I think it is fairly safe to say that without "immigration" of the europeans, and later other cultures, most of the indigineous folks currently stomping around loudly would not be living in a world where they get government handouts, housing assistance, education, job assistance and so on.

These same people are not backword in coming forward when it comes to lining up for government handouts and assistance from the same government that, if they had there way, they would have booted out of the country.

Unfortunately winding the clock back 200 years and sticking your head under a rock is not an option.

If you don't like it, there is plenty of bushland out there. Grab yourself a stick and a loincloth and go live with the drop bears.

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Compiling the above points you made, I'll summarize the whole problem with people trying to claim Aboriginal rights: The claimants always seem to want the best of both worlds. They own the land thanks to prior claim, and yet they want the benefits of today's government. It doesn't work. Either you live like you used to (with drop bears and no defense mechanisms - and no American tourists to use as bait/decoys), or you live in the modern country Australia. You can't try to merge the two.

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* If the English hadn't -SETTLED- in Sydney, someone else would have "invaded" somewhere else. Be that the dutch, the spanish, or one of the asian nations. Fact remains Australia as a land was harsh, sparsely populated and undeveloped before 1788.

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The Dutch, Spanish, Portugese, and others, all looked at this land. Many of them saw the west coast, and decided not to bother setting up a colony. A couple of colonies were started, but they died out (either because the people died, or because they decided the land wasn't worth the enormous effort it was taking - and these were people who knew what colonizing a new world would take). If I recall correctly, evidence of a Dutch settlement was found somewhere in Vic or NSW, dating to early 1700s; can't remember where exactly though. The Botany Bay settlement survived, and that's why Australia became a part of the British Empire. If it had failed (esp if mobs of warriors had beaten back the "invaders" successfully), someone else would have landed, maybe a few years later, and the cycle would begin anew.

Really, the question of who owns Australia depends on the definition of ownership. "Prior claim" is only valid when backed by law - a law that governs both the previous owner and the challenger. There are many ways for ownership to be claimed, and in many cases they have to be explicitly challenged. I don't know how the various Aboriginal tribes declared ownership (given that, if I understood it correctly, many neighboring tribes did not share language, so they would have had difficulty arranging any sort of legal settlement), but I'd be guessing that foot-planting would be the primary means - that is, "I'm standing here, you go stand there". When you move on from an area, do you still lay claim to it, or can someone else move in? If you're not right-this-moment using the land, do you own it? See, the whole claim that the "Aboriginal people" (which is nonsense anyway, there's not one single nation) own the land we now call Australia is ridiculous if made under the basis of... modern Australian law. Now, Malacasta, I don't have evidence/citations to back all this, but I would really like some citable documentation to show on what basis ownership is supposed to be claimable. Really, given that white settlers have been here and been assuming ownership for the past two centuries, I'd put onus on the various Aboriginal tribes, as the challengers, to show how they own. Without resorting to anything that they wouldn't have had without Britain. (Well, except English. Many have lost their original languages, which is most sad - a lot of culture has completely vanished. Use any language that works.)

By the way... harsh, sparsely populated and undeveloped? Are you saying it now isn't? :)

Well Rosuav, I'm sure you can google Mabo.

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Originally posted by Malacasta
It amazes me how much anger there is towards a group of people who are a tiny proportion of the population, who have 3rd world health and living conditions, who have basically zero impact on anybodies day to day life, who haven't taken anybodies land or anything.

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Firstly, please don't construe my post as anger or hostility towards the aboriginal people. I DO have respect for the aboriginal culture and its people and those of its decendants still alive today.

As Rosuav correctly surmised, a large amount of my frustration is from those that want to claim all the rights and benefits yet sponge off the government. In a large number of cases (refer to almost any news footage of protests or interviews on the topic) the most vocal are not even full blooded aborigines - if your lucky 25% or less. I believe the government policy is that you can claim your aboriginal heritage if you are up to 1/32 "aboriginal blood". Effectively this means the folks doing the complaining are just as guilty as me of "invading" and should therefore give themselves a stern smack across the ass.

Should we continue to help the aboriginal people? Absolutely. But the government has said "Sorry", now get over it and lets worry about moving forward happily for the next 200 years instead of sulking about the last 200

My position is similar for ANYONE who tries to play both sides of the system, and seems to care more about what they can get out of it than any real progress.

Not wanting to derail the thread but as examples (cause I know some folks like clear detail):

* Female firefighters who spruik about being treated as equals, while in the confines of their station lift their tops and proclaim "I have these and I'm not afraid to use them!" [for promotion, course opportunities etc..]
* Workers that beg on compassionate grounds to be stationed closer to home because their wife is having a rough time and they can't afford the extra travel time into the city - but then turn around and take "overtime" shifts, or volunteer for postings on penalty rates even though it is further than the city posting.
* Celebrities that get on a soapbox over animal rights issues without knowing what the hell they are talking about.

Back to "Invasion Day", at some point in moving forward both sides of a conflict have to put the past behind them and focus on the future not the past. The latest "debate" is just another example where that has not happened - and varies "notable personalities" have jumped on board to lend they're voice (and call me cynical, but in most cases I bet it is to boost their public image/popularity)

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Originally posted by Kravenar

Not wanting to derail the thread but as examples (cause I know some folks like clear detail):

* Female firefighters who spruik about being treated as equals, while in the confines of their station lift their tops and proclaim "I have these and I'm not afraid to use them!" [for promotion, course opportunities etc..]
* Workers that beg on compassionate grounds to be stationed closer to home because their wife is having a rough time and they can't afford the extra travel time into the city - but then turn around and take "overtime" shifts, or volunteer for postings on penalty rates even though it is further than the city posting.
* Celebrities that get on a soapbox over animal rights issues without knowing what the hell they are talking about.

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I'm all for derailing this horrible thread. Australia day has become so disgusting and chauvinistic I'm revolted. I mean, I don't know when it happened... was it the America's Cup? Was it 9/11? Was it Cronulla? Whatever it was, hordes of angry drunken yobbos shouting "Fuck off, we're full" to anyone who isn't of Anglo heritage is hardly something to celebrate.

I kept your derailing things in because I agree 100% with all your examples. I could add more along similar lines:
* People who refuse to join a union, but then harass me (in my capacity as a shop steward) to go to management to demand longer maternity leave, or a pay rise, or more overtime or because they were unfairly dismissed.
* People who say that 'towel headed, palies' and the 'terrorist loving left' are antisemitic and full of hatred
But I'll stop before I get too started.