Is America fucked?

This is a serious question. I'm certainly no economics expert, but something's gotta give. From the Wall Street bailout, to the auto industry bailout, to the Madoff $50 billion fraud, to the Iraqi/Afghanistan costs, how is America going to survive? Is this the beginning of the end?

I watched Zeitgeist Addendum with a HUGE grain of salt, but it begs a few questions nonetheless regarding the federal reserve, credit, etc...

Or is this nothing really new, and dysfunctional business as usual? and where the hell can I get a bailout without having to submit a detailed plan or oversight on how I spend it? (I know, I know I'm a Canuck...just askin')

America isn't fucked.... Taxes will be increased sky high. Though America will definitely be fucked if we don't start investing back into our country. Increasing the quality of our schools.

We're definitely in a tight spot that's for sure. But like Kailen said,

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America will definitely be fucked if we don't start investing back into our country. Increasing the quality of our schools.

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I think we need to stop worrying about other countries for once. And actually give a shit about our own.

Gotta worry about number 1, so you don't step in number 2 like I always say.

Agreed. But I don't just think it applies to America, I think all western societies should be learning their lesson and investing in social infrastructure.

America is no more 'fucked' than any western society in the world right now. They're just the most popular example.

Oh, and zeitgeist is an epic troll. And we don't feed the troll now, do we kiddies?

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Originally posted by Maelgrim
Oh, and zeitgeist is an epic troll. And we don't feed the troll now, do we kiddies?

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Can we feed one troll to another? Kestra would make a nice mealette.

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Originally posted by Kailen
Though America will definitely be fucked if we don't start investing back into our country. Increasing the quality of our schools.

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Amen.

One thing that REALLY bugs me and has contributed to the downfall of the US is (shockingly) is Christianity.

I consider myself to be a devout Christian, but it does bug me that a good majority of the voters are voting for who is more Christian rather than who is the better leader.

That isn't about being Christian Pae. It just grassroots organization getting growing big enough to become effective lobbyist.

It is fine, we will just inflate the way out of debt sooner or later. You have 8%/year inflation and 3%/year interest rate on the debt in one year you just decreased the total amount of your debt by 5% without actually paying anything towards the principle. Painful for a while, but not the end of the world.

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Originally posted by Serade

I think we need to stop worrying about other countries for once. And actually give a shit about our own.

Gotta worry about number 1, so you don't step in number 2 like I always say.

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I agree here. For the last couple years I've held the opinion that we need to go back to an isolationist policy.

I don't mean complete isolationism, of course. I'd like to think we've learned our lessons from history. We still need to keep an active eye on what's happening in other countries and make sure another 9/11 doesn't happen. We also need to make sure American influence isn't lessened in international politics (beyond what it already has been). We need to stay active just enough to let people know that, even though our presence won't be as noticeable for a few years, we'll still be a sleeping giant.

However, beyond the above, I think we need to be isolationist. If it is foreign affairs, and if it isn't going to directly harm us (long run or short run), then we should put it on the back burner. Sure, we might miss out on a few things, but we really do need to take some "time off" and patch things up at home. Things like foreign aid to all but the most extremely afflicted countries needs to be cut off.

After all, as the saying goes, how can you expect others to respect you if you don't respect yourself?

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Originally posted by Jyn
We still need to keep an active eye on what's happening in other countries and make sure another 9/11 doesn't happen.

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9/11 Happened BECAUSE of your meddling in other countries' business, not because you didn't keep a close eye, but because of your policies in Israel.

The UK is responsible for idiocy like this too, I'm not blaming America for everything (which is the easy way out for people these days).

Isolationism, however, isn't a good policy for any country. Being a good positive team player in what is, afterall, an international community, is the way forward. Being a bully boy for your own national interests and not caring about anyone else is definitely -very- backwards.

One of the things that originally made America so successful was it's willingness to allow foreign immigration and it's ability to aid other nations. Not that America shouldn't watch out for it's own interests.

The problem lately is that we haven't given much consideration to being self-reliant with our economy.

America isn't "fucked". Honestly, where else do people trample a grown man for a Wii during a sale in the middle of a global economic crisis? (I use "Wii" figuratively to represent hot items on "black friday")

Our problem is the fact that we try so hard to help the free market that we only hinder it. The best thing that we can do for a free market economy (which America is losing) is get out of the way and let it do it's thing.

Luckily we still have a free market economy which makes it very dynamic and allows it to right itself quickly after going offcourse.

I personally believe that the farther left we go (in the economic sense) the less dynamic we become and the more detrimental these inevitable recessions become.

On the subject of defense and our varied foreign conflicts, I believe that the United States needs to spend a little more than 4% of the GDP on defense. Especially in the areas of R&D and the production of these new technologies. Let's actually put all the DARPA research in the field.

The majority of our aging Airforce/Naval fighter fleet is made up of aging 2nd/3rd generation fighters like the f15s that were built in the 80s and many of which are suffering from years of poor maintainence. Meanwhile China and Russia are both threatening to seize air superiority with fleets that are now made up of 4th generation fighters when we could easily replace our old fighters with 5th generation fighters and fighter/bombers.

I know I know, bla bla Cold War- Shut up you Reagan Era Conservative. Meanwhile Russia requests that the United States end their Space Weapons program because it "Threatens Russia's nuclear might". They still hate us and are growing more and more bold. Yet one of the few things keeping them from melting the pentagon is a weapons program for which we can thank Reagan Era defense spending.

The DARPA is responsible for two giant leaps: one was a small step for a man, and the other is the internet. Everything else is a bonus. :)

If the US wants good defenses, they need to spend serious dollars on some of the aircraft that have recently been developed - the JSF and such. If the US wants businesses to recover and the economy to recover, they probably should avoid taxing them harder. Unfortunately, you can't spend money that doesn't exist, except by creating it - that is, inflating currency. So that's where we're at.

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Originally posted by khaltek
9/11 Happened BECAUSE of your meddling in other countries' business, not because you didn't keep a close eye, but because of your policies in Israel.

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It never fails to make me LOL when someone brings up America's involvement with Israel as a reason for 9/11, as if America was doing something wrong.

To be honest, strategically speaking, America is the only thing stopping the Israelis from simply throwing their hands up in disgust and simply asserting peace through superior fire power. Six day war anyone? Not to mention regardless of Iran's bluster, Israel's still the only player with nukes in the region apart from india/pakistan.

PS. Has there been an update to Godwin's law where anyone who apportions blame for 9/11 automatically loses the argument? Methinks there needs to be.

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Originally posted by Maelgrim
PS. Has there been an update to Godwin's law where anyone who apportions blame for 9/11 automatically loses the argument? Methinks there needs to be.

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Obviously Hitler was behind the Sept 11th attacks.

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Originally posted by Maelgrim
It never fails to make me LOL when someone brings up America's involvement with Israel as a reason for 9/11, as if America was doing something wrong.

To be honest, strategically speaking, America is the only thing stopping the Israelis from simply throwing their hands up in disgust and simply asserting peace through superior fire power. Six day war anyone? Not to mention regardless of Iran's bluster, Israel's still the only player with nukes in the region apart from india/pakistan.

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I'm quoting this for truth. Khaltek, it's quite sad you throw accusations on a matter you have little understanding of. Without digressing too much, let me get your facts clear: According to Al-Qaeda, the US is the "big devil" and Israel is the "small devil". In fact, aside from one miserable rocket, Al-Qaeda has never done any terror act against Israel or Israeli outposts (there were a few attacks on Jewish centers, but that's irrelevant).

And why am I stressing this? Because the US's foreign policy has nothing to do with the recent crisis and bringing up 9/11 is ludicrous.

It is economical matters such as credit, loans (including mortgages) and overdraft that in the long run created huge debts that will never be to cash in.

With today's globalization, it simply doesn't work for countries like the US to say "fuck everyone, I need to look at myself now" because the world's economy is so intricate right now that without everyone helping everyone, we'll all be in deep shit. Take for example the crisis in Turkey's stock exchange last year - it caused the main markets in the world to drop drastically (especially within Europe and the Far East, but we all know how these markets affect the US).

So what can we do now? First and foremost, we need to make sure the pension funds are safe through a governmental "safe net". If millions of elderly people are going to be ejaculated from the work cycle with no money to support themselves, it will pose many governments with very serious problems.

Second would be to lower the interest (quite possibly to a 0% rate if that's what is needed). This would serve two purposes:

1) Decrease the growth of debts (the ones I listed above), which would be an important tool for future collection of said funds.
2) Encourage people to spend their money instead of putting it in "long-term" funds which would basically keep the money out of the "changing hands" cycle. Such move has the potential to bolster wealthy people to invest in infrastructure and education (especially with low interest over loans, which would also allow aspiring investors to enter the market).

In the bottom line my point is this: In the world's current state, the US can't (unless it wants to fall along with everyone else) cease supporting different countries around the world. It is time for the goverment(s) to apply insurance for the savers, so that what little money people have left, they don't lose it (and it applies more the pensions funds because some people who are close to retirement age might never see their funds recovering because they are out of the working cycle). In addition, it is time to lower interest to encourage immediate investments instead of long-term so that the market sees real cash now in those hard time where people find it hard to recruit money for their businesses.

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Tartun: I personally believe that the farther left we go (in the economic sense) the less dynamic we become and the more detrimental these inevitable recessions become.

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I'm just curious what you mean by "left (in the economic sense)."

Because, well, there are several lefts that come to mind. I don't think any politician this day and age has suggested we develop a command economy (about as obfuscatedly left as possible). I really don't think there's too much to be concerned about in this case when you consider that the only entity that competes with US GDP is the entire European Union. So, we are hyper-capitalists, and I honestly have no fear that we're going to change that.

There has been some buzz about "common sense regulation and/or oversight" so I'm curious if you're refering to that.

I also caught a typo in your post, and thought I'd correct it:

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Tartun: for which we can thank Reagan Era deficit spending.

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Joke!

Respectfully, the guy behind Cais

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Originally posted by Maelgrim
It never fails to make me LOL when someone brings up America's involvement with Israel as a reason for 9/11, as if America was doing something wrong.

To be honest, strategically speaking, America is the only thing stopping the Israelis from simply throwing their hands up in disgust and simply asserting peace through superior fire power. Six day war anyone? Not to mention regardless of Iran's bluster, Israel's still the only player with nukes in the region apart from india/pakistan.

PS. Has there been an update to Godwin's law where anyone who apportions blame for 9/11 automatically loses the argument? Methinks there needs to be.

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Backing up a people who stole an entire country is incredibly wrong.

As to Israel being the only ones with any clout in the region, Yom Kippur War and Operational Nickel Grass, anyone?

Israel only has any might due to the massive military aid it receives from the U.S.

I'd be pissed off if my country was annexed by a minority faction and said faction was backed up by an untouchable/invincible military bully.

I'd do everything -I- could to stop it and hope that other Europeans would step in and do everything -they- could, too, like they did against Franco in Spain and like they're currently doing now.

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Originally posted by khaltek
Backing up a people who stole an entire country is incredibly wrong.

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Ah, but who stole whose country? Depends on which side you ask, really.

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Israel only has any might due to the massive military aid it receives from the U.S.

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It could be argued that this is a good relationship for the US because of the stipulations that Israel purchase our products.

Also, Israel historically has excellent Intelligence and has provided the US with valuable information.

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Originally posted by khaltek
Backing up a people who stole an entire country is incredibly wrong.

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I thought of opening a new thread for this, but since this thread isn't a very well defined one, I guess it won't be too bad to reply here.

As for your point, unlike what Marah wrote, it doesn't depend on who you ask. Most Palestinians (leaving Hamas and Islamic Jihad aside, which I'm assuming you aren't member of, though you never know) agree to 67' borders (prior Six Days War). Saying Israel stole an ENTIRE country is simply wrong - maybe the UN did with its resolution to divide Palestine into two countries (and to remind you, it was the Palestinians who started the War of Indipendence and suffered a heavy defeat).

Historically-wise, the country belongs to the Cna'ans, but I don't see them claiming it. Next in line were the Israelites. So if anything, it is the Palestinians who stole the country from the Israelis, but hey, don't let facts confuse you.

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As to Israel being the only ones with any clout in the region, Yom Kippur War and Operational Nickel Grass, anyone?

Israel only has any might due to the massive military aid it receives from the U.S.

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Again you show your ignorance. Indeed the US aided Israel in Yom Kippur, but France aided Israel with its nuclear program and Czech Republic helped Israel during the War of Indipendence. That is the basic way things are going - you aid those whom you think could aid you. To say that Israel has nothing to give back to the US is completely wrong (Two examples for you: Intelligence and technology).

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I'd be pissed off if my country was annexed by a minority faction and said faction was backed up by an untouchable/invincible military bully.

I'd do everything -I- could to stop it and hope that other Europeans would step in and do everything -they- could, too, like they did against Franco in Spain and like they're currently doing now.

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I'd say that is the only good point in your post, albeit irrelevant. I hope you realize Israel has enough power to maintain souvereignity over the West Bank without the US.

As for a solution, it is far more complicated than what you might think, especially knowing that a full retreat from the West Bank will leave it at Hamas' hands - which is not what the current Palestinian leadership wants (seeing a retreat from the Gaza Strip resulted in Hamas taking the laws to its hands).

So you see, it's funny. Without Israel, there is no Palestine, only Hamas-land, which would be trampled to the ground after attacking Israel (and I hope you won't say it is not a country's right to defend itself against attackers), and with Israel there is occupation. Were I a Palestinian, I'd say that the latter is better. There is no future for the Palestinians under a terror-organization reign, such as Hamas.

And where does the US enter here? It doesn't. The US encourages both parties to discuss a peace treaty, but considering the Palestinian leadership currently has two heads, it is not the easiest of tasks, especially considering you are boycotting one of the heads.

I seriously fail to see how the US has any "fault" in this - the biggest problems are Palestinian-internal matters, and until they are resolved, it is fairly stupid to blame the US for all the world's wrongdoings.

If America is fucked, there is a very simple reason for it:

We have learned or been taught that it is easier to use our votes to make someone give us what we want than to go out and earn it on our own.

"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
-Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been about 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: '>From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage."
-Alexander Fraser Tytler (1747-1813)

Not as eloquent, but more modern:

"A perfect democracy, a 'warm body' democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction. ... [O]nce a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so..." They'll vote themselves bread and circuses every time "until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader [such as] the barbarians enter Rome."
- Robert Heinlein (1907-1988), from To Sail Beyond the Sunset

Who knows when/how fast it'll happen, but I'm fairly certain America won't last in its current form. I've always considered a true democracy to be a short-life system. The majority of the population in any country are like children, once you get to the point that the children can tell the parents what to do and the parents can't say no you're in big trouble.

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Originally posted by Reshad
Who knows when/how fast it'll happen, but I'm fairly certain America won't last in its current form. I've always considered a true democracy to be a short-life system. The majority of the population in any country are like children, once you get to the point that the children can tell the parents what to do and the parents can't say no you're in big trouble.

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What America has is not true democracy, but some variant of representative democracy - tempered by a bureaucracy. The government departments remain in power no matter who's elected above them.

The fact is, though, that any form of representative democracy (tempered or otherwise, unless it's "tempered" to the extent that the elected representatives are mere figureheads with no power) is susceptible to the "popular vs right" dilemma. Do you do what's right for the country, or do you do what's going to make you popular on election day? Since most countries schedule their elections every 3-5 years, this favours short projects over long ones, and things that are beneficial to the most vocal groups, rather than beneficial overall. (The latter, and of course the massive power of the media, comes as a natural consequence of the scale of things. There's NO WAY that the President of the United States of America can personally know or be known by every one of the 300 million people who vote for or against him.)

I think America can survive a good long time without significant change. It won't remain forever, but at the moment, there are enough incentives for people to work that the GDP is remaining decent. But as social security gets more and more important, and heavier and heavier taxes are levied, the less reason there will be to bother working, and THAT will bring about America's downfall. It'll take time, but ultimately, the three quotes Ari posted will inevitably be fulfilled.

Incidentally, the Ben Franklin quote is fulfilled on an even more direct level. Politicians can, to an extent, vote themselves pay rises and pensions. If that isn't open to abuse, I don't know what is. But on the country level, it comes to the same thing, when people will vote for the party/leader/senator/judge who gives them the greatest personal benefit.

What's to do about it, though? The alternatives are also fraught with peril, and everyone complains far louder about the idea of having a monarch, even with an elected parliament. The ultimate problem is that people aren't perfect, and no system of government can ever change that. So... countries will continue to rise, crest, fall, and be replaced, I guess.

Unless we all turn hermit.

If anything will save America it will be another revolution. Thank the original patriots for the Second Amendment.

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If anything will save America it will be another revolution.

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I've been saying this for years!! Wishful thinking though.

I really don't know what all the hysteria is about. The current economic contraction is not going to trigger the end of the United States. The U.S. national debt, while increasing, is still far less as a percentage of GDP than that of Japan, Germany, France and Italy, for example. The United States still has a robust manufacturing base and the largest skilled workforce on the planet.

I don't see a long term problem.

Short answer – Yes, but not irreparably.

Long answer – Yes. And to be honest you’ve got nobody to blame but yourselves.

Lest start with the obvious, Bush. The first election he stole, I suppose you guys can’t really be held responsible for that. Maybe you should’ve started pushing for impeachment the second he took the oath, but that’s beside the point. The point it you let him have a second term. Despite the previously mentioned multi million dollar bailouts to big companies and an enormous increase in defence spending there wasn’t enough money to help the people made homeless by Hurricane Katrina.

You re-elected someone who openly stated “the constitution is just a damn piece of paper”, how can that not be seen as national suicide?

A fellow Thresher said they’d voted for Bush because of his “moral character” and Christian beliefs. (despite him being a military deserter and having been arrested for drunk driving and assault, but I suppose that can be forgiven if you believe in Jesus enough…) This is another way in which you’ve fucked yourselves. You needed someone who was interested in economics and helping the poor, in the environment and education not shouting about God and giving all your money to his daddy’s cronies. Think about how much the right are bitching about the chances Obama is going to raise taxes, then think at least the public will be getting the benefits of these taxes, rather than anyone who works for the Carlisle Group…

Which brings us to the next problem – God. Why in a country where people are supposed to be able to pursue religion however they wish does the commander in chief have to swear “god”? It’s not as bad as Sharia Law, but it’s a very slippery slope.

Guns – Get the HELL over it! When the second amendment was written the weapon of the day was a single shot musket that took a minute and a half to load and fire. It was not the sort of assault rifle that can mow down a classroom full of kids Virginia Tech or Columbine High School Students? Ever wonder why Japan, Germany, France, Spain, Canada, Great Britain and Scandinavia put together have far less gun-related deaths? And to those of you who use the “I want a gun for protection” argument does November 22nd 1963 ring a bell? Someone surrounded by highly trained armed guards was assassinated.

American needs to get over these antiquated ideas that you cling to and join most of Europe and Canada in the new millennium. It’s holding you back. Take healthcare for example… When your house is burning do you have to fill in ten different forms before the firemen put it out? When someone breaks in to your house do you have to pass a credit-check before the cops show up? So why do you have to pay for what every other developed country sees as an emergency-service on the same as the other two? You need a change in the national consciousness from defending yourselves to helping one another.
Why do you think you need guns? – To protect what you see as “yours”

Why do you spend so much on defence? – To protect yourselves from an enemy your government has either dreamed up to manipulate you or provoked on your behalf.

You need to get away from this idea that everyone’s out to rob or kill you and anyone who doesn’t like Jesus should be regarded with similar contempt to the way Danish journalists are in the middle-east and fix the social problems in your own country before trying to rule the world and kill anyone who says anything you don’t like.

Oh, and a note for the future, within 10 years China will have surpassed you in every conceivable way, try and deal with it as gracefully as we did when you took over from us and don’t throw an invading/nuclear tantrum.

As Venato once said, we could just build a raft and become the first immigrants to Cuba.

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Short answer – Yes, but not irreparably. Long answer – Yes. And to be honest you’ve got nobody to blame but yourselves.

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I like this Khortez guy. He's got a beat I can really dance to. I gave him a 9 out of 10, Dick!!

Great quotes, Ari, I must admit I've often said I'd vote for any candidate or party whose policies benefited me, more so than the party whose policies benefited the country. I suppose I'm one of those ones Ben Franklin was talking about.

It does raise the question, though, that if people would use their vote to benefit themselves, why did only 60% of the electorate turn out to vote in the last election (Canadian)? Is it because no party is actually making any promises that people care about, or, is it that no matter who controls the government, it's the same old people who get the pork and most of us just get bent over?

I think America has a lot going for it, but, at the same time, American society took a downturn when Hollywood and celebrity became more important than character.

Not quite sure when that happened exactly, but it's certainly the case now.

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Originally posted by Jozep
It does raise the question, though, that if people would use their vote to benefit themselves, why did only 60% of the electorate turn out to vote in the last election (Canadian)?

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I think it's mostly a combination of two things. First, a lot of people don't have much incentive to go out and vote if they're in a particular party's stronghold. For example, NDP voters in Calgary might not even bother voting. For that mater, a lot of Conservative voters in Calgary might not bother to vote either, because everyone knows what the outcome will be.

Secondly, some people are just uninterested in politics and don't care.

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Originally posted by Khortez

Guns

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http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

The majority of people who mishandle firearms in the US of A are people who shouldn't be carrying one in the first place.

The fact is, that even if America revoked all gun rights in this country, I can still travel 50 miles to the city of Chicago and every gangbanger on the street to be armed with a firearm will be armed with an illegal, unmarked and unlicensed firearm rather than a legal one.

If you're this concerned about getting rid of guns in America, you should definitely start with the bigger, much more deadly market that exists in this country: The black market. Especially considering regardless of what legislation is passed concerning legal guns, criminals will invariably still be able to procure illegal ones and utilize them against further unarmed civilians who weren't doing any damage with them in the first place.

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Originally posted by Khortez
A fellow Thresher said they’d voted for Bush because of his “moral character” and Christian beliefs. (despite him being a military deserter and having been arrested for drunk driving and assault, but I suppose that can be forgiven if you believe in Jesus enough…) This is another way in which you’ve fucked yourselves. You needed someone who was interested in economics and helping the poor, in the environment and education not shouting about God and giving all your money to his daddy’s cronies. Think about how much the right are bitching about the chances Obama is going to raise taxes, then think at least the public will be getting the benefits of these taxes, rather than anyone who works for the Carlisle Group…

Which brings us to the next problem – God. Why in a country where people are supposed to be able to pursue religion however they wish does the commander in chief have to swear “god”? It’s not as bad as Sharia Law, but it’s a very slippery slope.

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I've always found it amusing that the country with the most famous constitution behaves like this. The First Amendment speaks of free religion, and while it's true you can pretty much practice any religion you want in the US, if you don't believe in god (or to a lesser degree in Jesus) you are a class B citizen and certainly not worthy of any leadership role.

Unfortunately, the problem is similar in my country (maybe that's why we get along so well) - we have no constitution because for 60 years, the fractions couldn't agree on a constitution that would fit a "Democratic Jewish" country.

Khortez - in general I liked your points and analogies, but it does beg a question - would you have written the same note last year when the markets soared to skyline heights?

I can't believe I'm going to do this because I'm not a fan but...

In defense of Bush:

As far as his comment about the Constitution being a gd piece of paper, that's one of those comments that's disputed back and forth all over the web. No actual recording, no actual news articles that I could find, only blogs and articles about those blogs.

And as far as giving money out, we have another pretty massive branch of government that holds massive responsibility when it comes to money and where it goes.

I think that a big step in America un-fucking itself, would be to reclaim those rights and freedoms the whole country is so proud of, when you don't even have them anymore.

They are currently nothing more than priveleges, which can be dismissed at will by the powers that be without so much as probable cause.

The "wartime" legislation of the Patriot Act is more an attack against the American people, than against those who would attack the American people.

We're as fucked as any other country in the world right now. So pick which place you rather be fucked in. I'm sticking with America :)

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Originally posted by Khortez

Lest start with the obvious, Bush. The first election he stole

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I stopped reading there.

I despise George Bush, but he did not "steal" the election. That has been proven repeatedly by every group that has done serious research into the topic.

If you want to contribute to a discussion, it is a good idea to avoid the absurd platitudes of the lunatic fringe. The whole "Bush stole the election" canard is up there with "the Israeli's or Bush planned 9/11."

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Originally posted by Khortez

Guns – Get the HELL over it! When the second amendment was written the weapon of the day was a single shot musket that took a minute and a half to load and fire. It was not the sort of assault rifle that can mow down a classroom full of kids Virginia Tech or Columbine High School Students?

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This argument is laughable. The type of weapon doesn't matter... It wouldn't matter if they were using stone knives or laser cannons at the time. The purpose of the 2nd amendment was to allow people to protect themselves from tyrannical governments and actions. You can bet that if the author was alive and writing the 2nd amendment today, or if today's weapons existed back then, the amendment would be written just the same. This is because the purpose would be the same.

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Originally posted by Khortez

Ever wonder why Japan, Germany, France, Spain, Canada, Great Britain and Scandinavia put together have far less gun-related deaths?

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First off, are you making this claim on based on raw numbers, or are you comparing the statistics proportionally according to population size and makeup, as you should be?

Regardless, I'm too tired/lazy to look up stats atm, but I bet that, in the absence of guns, knife-related deaths (or other tools-turned-weapon, or even fists) are proportionally higher in those countries when compared to America.

Europeans like to act like they're more "enlightened" and more sophisticated than the rest of the world, especially Americans. It really doesn't help things, and it certainly isn't true.

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Originally posted by Khortez

And to those of you who use the “I want a gun for protection” argument does November 22nd 1963 ring a bell? Someone surrounded by highly trained armed guards was assassinated.

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What kind of argument is this? Because one man wasn't saved everyone else shouldn't even bother -trying- to protect themselves? Is owning a gun going to protect you from long-distance assassination/sniper attempts? Probably not... but most people aren't going to be the victims of sniper attacks. Yes, it happens, and it even happened fairly recently, but it is not common. Most situations in which a person is going to be able to protect themselves with a gun are going to be break-ins, muggings, car-jackings, etc. Close encounters.

Listen, you want to depend on the police and military to protect you and your family, that's your business. The fact of the matter is that 9 times out of 10, the police and such can't or won't do anything until after a crime has been committed. Sometimes they'll get lucky and someone will rat someone else out and they'll be able to prevent something. Otherwise, if the crime happens to be your murder or the murder of someone you love... sure, the police will probably catch the guy, but you're still dead.

If a guy pulls a gun on me, am I reaching for my wallet or for my gun? One guess. Sure, this guy may just take my wallet and leave me alone. I'll even be -very- generous and say that there is a 99% chance of this happening. Still, there is a 1% chance that he may kill me no matter how I try to appease him. That 1% chance of my death is not worth his life to me, and so he will die. Do you like to gamble with your life and the lives of your loved ones in dangerous situations?

Guns are not a reason that America is "fucked." They are something that the country has been built on, and getting away from them and the philosophies that serve as a foundation -will- fuck up what IS America. Now, you're free to argue that "fucking up" America in this way is for the better, but that's for another thread.

Americans have the right to bear arms...a right that "Government shall not infringe" upon. Why? Because our guns are meant to be used on our own government in the event they get too far beyond what we feel is acceptable.

This country was founded by citizens picking up a gun and shooting those who would rule it. Our forefathers were nice enough to let future generations have the tools to do it again...

Because all governments eventually turn into a dictatorship of one form or another.

Gun ownership has been legal and widespread in the USA for over 200 years. But somehow, that right has just suddenly in the last 10 years or so ruined our country. Yeah.... that makes a lot of sense. LOL.

Quote:

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Khortez's big anti-US rant

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tl;dr - "I have been listening to far too many butthurt anti-US academics without verifying my research or theirs, or even establishing credible references. This is a copy-pasta, you can all go on your way. Nothing to see here!"

I REALLY hate dismissing an argument out of hand, Khortez, but the only way your post could have sounded any more moonbatty is if you came out with some way to segue into "Jews did WTC".