Lebanese celebrate child murderer

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Originally posted by kestra
I disagree with these two statements so fundamentally, I don't even know where to begin. I'm going to have to think about it somemore and get back to you.

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You are having trouble responding because the stark, obvious truth of what I said throws your entire philosophy into question. I get that. Here's the thing: I'm not happy about it. I don't like it. I think it is a terrible and tragic fact of the human existence that such remorseless evil exists. But it does exist. And until we acknowledge it for what it is, we will be too weak to defeat it.

This wrongheaded belief that you can always change behaviors is not just wrong but dangerous. There are simply people out there who are so evil, and so diametrically opposed to us that there is no middle ground. There can be no meeting of the minds. There can be no negotiation or mutual understanding or anything else that would obviously be preferably to any sort of violence.

In a perfect world, nobody would ever have to take up arms against anyone else. No conflict would ever be solved through violence, killing, or blowing stuff up. But we clearly do not live in a perfect world.

When you are dealing with people who want nothing but our absolute destruction, sitting around talking about "changing behaviors" is a one-way ticket to annihilation.

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You are having trouble responding because the stark, obvious truth of what I said throws your entire philosophy into question.

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No, not really.

What many people in the West cannot, or will not admit, is that many atrocities have been carried out by their governments. There is history behind the creation of Al Qaida/Hezbollah/Hamas. What the West doesn't talk about is their involvement.
Kill them, before they kill us is how it's always gone, and will always go. Demonize the enemy, while telling your own people that everything your government is doing for you is in the name of everything righteous and good.

Every government does this. Just don't hold up one government as altruistic over a foreign one.

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Originally posted by kestra
Demonize the enemy, while telling your own people that everything your government is doing for you is in the name of everything righteous and good.

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Sorry man, but people who HAPPILY kill children are demonizing themselves. They don't need our help.

Right. If a soldier in the United States armed forces (and I'm sure the armed forces of other western countries) were to MURDER a child intentionally, they would not be greeted with cheers when they returned to our country. They'd probably be put in a military prison and stay there for a long time..

You mean similar to THIS

Maybe these soldiers should emigrate to Lebanon and be hailed as heroes. Killing kids and civilians is fine after all! They're not evil, just misunderstood.

From the Wiki article about My Lai "Three U.S. servicemen who made an effort to halt the massacre and protect the wounded were sharply critizised by US Congressmen, received hate mail, death threats and mutilated animals on their doorsteps.[5] Only 30 years after the event were their efforts honored"

This suggests that there were people in the US who approved of those who raped woman and shot children in the massacre to the point where they'd send death threats and mutilated animals to the 3 soldiers who tried to stop it.

Maybe those US folks who mutilated animals in support of child murderers are evil like those folk in Lebanon, or maybe they were just caught up in a whole lot of nationalist fervour. Maybe they had brothers who were killed by the Vietnamese in the war. Maybe they really believed that the communists were going to take over the world and it was critical to win by any means necessary.

In any case, the majority of the civilian folk in the US didn't mutilate animals in support of the child killers, just like the majority of Lebanese folk's didn't cheer in favor of this particular child murderer.

That said, what point is trying to be made by the original post? Is it that bad things happen in war? Is it that all arabs are evil spawn who should be eradicated? Well?

My point was that using the "they are Evil and need to be stopped" reason (which is most likely the oldest excuse to do anything to anyone else, right or wrong) is the wrong reason to use to gain support when you are engaged in a protracted struggle against an insurgency that has a rooted cause. Arabs and Palestinians are not springing up at 15-25 years of age or older, with bombs strapped on their chests and bearing Kalishnikovs. The ones involved are being indoctrinated over the course of their lives in thinking that the West and the "Zionists" are "evil" and must be stopped. By declaring them "evil" you are giving them ammunition to turn to fence-sitting, generally non-fanatical individuals into allies and comrades.

This situation, more than any other -does- require a nuanced and understanding approach. Perhaps the fanatics may not be redeemed and will most likely be slain in the course of their careers, but if a nuanced and understanding approach is taken on finding out what is causing Hassam, a little Arab/Palestinian boy, to change to the gun-totting and slogan shouting fanatic. Once this is discovered, we work hard to cure this so that the hard-core fanatics have no breeding ground.

Notice how no where in there I said, "We should not defend ourselves." There will be times when regrettably lives will be lost on both sides. However, for sake of those lives lost and those ruined, on both sides, the strongest effort must be made towards eliminating the roots for these causes.

This is the most difficult path, no two ways about it. It requires a very patient approach. Americans are not good at patient, which is why, unfortunately, the "they're evil/kill'em all" rally cry is sounded time and again. Guess what? It doesn't work.

A good example of the "they're evil/kill'em all" failing is the response to Black September and their actions in Munich '72 and others. Sure, the Israelis killed some of the men involved. Has that stopped groups like them from forming and operating? No. The same situation can be seen with similar groups in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

Hopefully, my point will be understood better.

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Originally posted by Jidoe
Sorry man, but people who HAPPILY kill children are demonizing themselves. They don't need our help.

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Originally posted by Nephrys
Right. If a soldier in the United States armed forces (and I'm sure the armed forces of other western countries) were to MURDER a child intentionally, they would not be greeted with cheers when they returned to our country. They'd probably be put in a military prison and stay there for a long time..

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I'm quoting those two because they make the point very well.

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Originally posted by Riek
You mean similar to THIS

Maybe these soldiers should emigrate to Lebanon and be hailed as heroes. Killing kids and civilians is fine after all! They're not evil, just misunderstood.

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Actually, that is indeed a good example. The rsult of the My Lai Massacre was a mssive loss of support for the Vietnam War, more people learning about what was going on there, and a long term dedication to improved training and recruitment for quality leadership.

I've seen countless such massacres from fundamentalist muslim organizations over the last 40 years, but no similar positive outcomes that resulted from their "mistakes." Or hell, even any admission that they made such mistakes.

The USA, like all countries, makes mistakes. Some of them are egregious ones. That is because the USA is made of people, and people are fallible. So what you have to do to evaluate a people or a country is see how they handle and react to their mistakes. We (Americans) are not (all) oblivious to the actions taken by our people or our government. On the contrary, we try to learn from wrongful actions and prevent them in the future.

This is similar to the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII. Afterward, the USA paid significant reparations to all interred people. It remains to this day the only time a country willingly paid reparations for an act taken during a time of war.

The USA, like most civilized countries of the world, has a history of acknowledging its mistakes and doing what it can to remedy them, learn from them, and prevent them from happening again. Yes, sometimes this takes time. But at least it happens at all! When it comes to issues of morality and ethics, intent and effort both matter enormously.

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Originally posted by Nephrys
Right. If a soldier in the United States armed forces (and I'm sure the armed forces of other western countries) were to MURDER a child intentionally, they would not be greeted with cheers when they returned to our country. They'd probably be put in a military prison and stay there for a long time..

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Yeah, they were. It's been done recently and those murdering bastards ARE behind bars.

I guess the best quote I can offer is this: "The best trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist." Now, I don't know if the quote is exact or who said it, but the point is that evil does exist and anyone who denies it is naive, stupid, or foolish. Thieves steal because capitalist America forces them to, right? See, the thing is, it's all about the childish belief that "it's not my fault". So why are people evil? Mommy and Daddy abused you and you came up a psycho? You were raised under a psycho dictator and all you know is force? Your religion praises murder and that's all you know? Sorry, I don't buy into the "behavior is evil" school of thought. Behavior comes from a thought in an individual's mind. The individual CHOSE to act in an evil manner.

So to get back on topic, I have to ask you this Kestra, what exposure to evil do YOU have? I've been exposed to drug addicts, rapists, murderers, child molesters, and generally some of the most evil acts you'd imagine. I've MET these Middle Eastern people. I don't believe the Middle East should become a parking lot for India, but I don't believe all is good there either. There are good people there, and no, I don't think Islam is evil. Just some of their extremist sects. And yes, those exist in all religions and countries.

Look, just because America is guilty of such deeds as slavery, the Trail of Tears, and the Japanese internment camps does NOT make those terrorist bastards any less evil. Intentionally causing the death of a child is an unforgivable evil to me. Anyone who would do so is undeniably evil. Just because it's okay to a particular culture does NOT make it okay! Child prostitution is okay in the Far East. So it should be okay, right?

Frankly, it pisses me off to see anyone defend such acts and beliefs. Finally, I should make a point that not all criminals are evil and some are worth rehabilitating. But the bottom line is that unless it was an accident, the intent WAS there. Evil exists. And it is prevalent and celebrated in Lebanon, like it or not. Whether it's celebrated by the masses or just a small percentage of the population, the fact is undeniable.

And just so you know, if we pull out of Iraq too soon, I will be pissed off. Not that I won't be glad not to go back and not that I won't be glad that my buddies won't go back either, but that we left a job undone. And it WILL bite us on the ass, guaranteed. I, too, want to believe in the good in people and that world peace is possible. I also want a million dollars, but that ain't gonna happen either. The best we can do is recognize evil when we see it and stop it.

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So to get back on topic, I have to ask you this Kestra, what exposure to evil do YOU have?

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For me, the word 'evil' is used to describe acts or thoughts which are contrary to some particular religion. Being non-religious, it means little to me.

My only point is that I believe the West is no more ethically, or morally superior to East. Both sides have done, and are doing alot of nasty shit to each other; so for one side to say they're the 'good guys' is a load of crap to me.