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We'll have to agree to disagree. The research here just backs up my experiences and the experiences of my friends and fellow students. So when you say that it's not logical, well I really can't see where you're coming from. I don't get it.
And to be honest, I'm a bit annoyed about putting in the effort to add argument when the result is unbacked opinion and assertion.
Really? You can't see where I am coming from? How many guys do you know that look at porn? Pretty much all, yeah? How many of them are rapists? This isn't exactly a leap of logic here. The causal connection between porn/strip clubs and abuse of women is tenuous at best and more likely just flat out absurd.Quote:
Originally posted by Malacasta
We'll have to agree to disagree. The research here just backs up my experiences and the experiences of my friends and fellow students. So when you say that it's not logical, well I really can't see where you're coming from. I don't get it.
Do you really call that research? I don't mean the part that you did, I mean the junk science the "researchers" did in those laughable studies. I mean seriously... showing guys porn and then asking them questions. That's research? I imagine most of the "subjects" had a laugh about the whole process. I know I would.Quote:
Originally posted by Malacasta
And to be honest, I'm a bit annoyed about putting in the effort to add argument when the result is unbacked opinion and assertion.
I'm going to start off by apologizing for adding to your annoyance. The effort you made to produce literature to back yourself up is appreciated. I normally try to approach things scientifically myself, but I've decided to approach this from a more philosophical perspective instead.Quote:
Originally posted by Malacasta
And to be honest, I'm a bit annoyed about putting in the effort to add argument when the result is unbacked opinion and assertion.
That being said, my previous opinions and assertions are not exactly unbacked. I do have some experience with being a guy. This being the case, I'm granted a modicum of insight into how different types of men think and why they think it.
Men may see and hear of horrible things that other men do that they would never do themselves. Despite this, most thinking men will still have an innate understanding of why particular men do particular things. This could be for a variety of reasons, but I think that it mostly comes down to being wired the same. We all have the same temptations and urges. The same thoughts tend to cross our minds. It's how we react and deal with them that make us different. I don't think a lot of men would willingly admit to themselves, let alone others, that they are capable of understanding the motives behind injustices great and small committed by other men. Still, there is a difference between being able to think like a misogynist and thinking like/being a misogynist.
I guess this mostly comes down to an "it takes one to know one" argument with different degrees of understanding.
I'll say this as simply as I'm able. In today's society, if a woman is objectified to a point that it's actually hindering her advancement in society, it's her own fault.
Women today, who maintain a respectable sense of self-worth, are able to succeed to an equal degree as a man. The trivial day to day interactions between people matter none. If a guy objectifies women, and I've been accused of such, the worst that can come from it is annoyance. Women are not property. They can vote and own property of their own. They can have high paying jobs and aren't stuck in the kitchen.
An attractive woman is an attractive woman and being seen as such is NOT harmful. Women with an over-exerted sense of being wronged hate to see the agreeable medium that comes when attractive women know they can use their looks to gain, and men are willing to compensate them for it. Those same men most likely go to jobs where they have at least one higher up who has a vagina.
There are excesses. There are ALWAYS excesses. I get annoyed when those excesses are used to define the standard. They're not an accurate depiction of the reality.
As for letting men watch porn, then asking them questions/testing them. That is a flawed study because the overall effect is going to be involving interactions that are NOT face to face. We view celebrities completely different than we view everyday people. We hold those we don't interact with everyday to different standards than we do those we have to sit beside at work, eat dinner with, go to school with. Why? Because when they're on a screen they ARE objects. That is the only side of them that we know of.
The entire argument that sexual situations objectifies women is so blanket it doesn't accurate define the question that should be asked/statement that should be made.
Do I view the women in a porno as sexual objects? Yes. If I met them on the street would I? Not likely. I know strippers. I have the same conversations with them as I have with any other person. And those who have met me can attest that I am nothing at all like what you see on citizen.
People should look around and SEE instead of being told what to believe. Studies are biased. There hasn't been a study conducted EVER that was conducted just because. There was always an agenda. There is always an outcome somebody, left or right, good or bad, up or down, object or human, hopes to come from them. Those outcomes would be regional at best. Influenced at worst. Misleading in application, in general.
Having access to numerous academic databases, I can search for studies on this subject. However, right now the waters are so muddy I wouldn't even know where to begin. There's...
... the consequences of objectification,
whether it leads to increased violence against women (as a specific consequence),
whether pornography - as a specific type of objectification (and far from the only type) - is a major factor in this association,
whether women truly experience equality with men (either in opportunities or in actual status),
whether objectification and women's purported equal status with men are related in any way,
whether women and men are objectified in equal amounts and ways,
and so on.
These issues constitute a wide of gender studies, and aren't neccessarily issues that can be mixed in the casual way they are being thrown about here. That is not to say that the issues are not intertwined in some manner, but that the issue at hand is far more complex than an assertion that "women have it better than ever before and porn is everywhere, so obviously objectification has no effect" (assuming that I really caught the argument people are making here).
Last time I posted academic studies, it was primarily evidence that legalization of prostitution led to some reductions in violence, health risks, and stigmas for prostitutes specifically. However, this benefit went to the prostitutes themselves, not women in general, and here is an important point to be made: the issue is not that a specific woman who is objectified (the stripper example mentioned repeatedly in this thread) will experience some disadvantage as a result, but rather that the widespread objectification of women (overt or subtle, sexual or otherwise) results in women occupying a lower status relative to men, and associated with that status are a variety of disadvantages. But even this statement does not mean that all women will experience disadvantage (else we commit ecological fallacy ). The "actual-world" results (as opposed to those observed/predicted in studies) will vary by a huge range of factors, from race to education, social network, age, and so forth.
I could go on and on about various issues to consider in the social sciences, but I'll try to refrain. To reiterate, I could easily find out what some of the academic studies on this subject say (unfortunately, I haven't had much study in this specific area of gender issues yet), but someone will need to clarify very specifically what the issue at hand is. And hopefully every can be careful about the argument that they make in this and other debates - it's hard to respond to arguments when they continually wander around from issue to issue with no continuity from person to person and frequently confuse trends with individual issues.
In my opinion, women are held to a higher social status today then men are. Look around and you'll see it. Look at any sit-com. Porno might make women sexual objects, but sit-coms make men into bumbling idiots and the wives into the know-it-all, perfection filled paragons of awesomeness who always clean up the messes their fool husbands create.
Look at the laws which have assault carrying less punishment than assault on a female.
James Brown said it best: "This is a man's world. But it wouldn't be nothin' without a woman or a girl."
Well, look at some strict muslim cultures like Pakistan or Afghanistan, Iran, where porn is illegal. Women are certainly not objectified sexually on tv, billboards or what have you. They've moved beyond objectification -- they're second class citizens. So linking porn or provocative billboards with the objectification of women is just silly. A man's opinion of women starts with his upbringing, his family unit and, imo, his level of education (African-American males have a bad rep when it comes to their better halves).
I just happened to be reading this site and came across this blog entry. I found it pertinent.
http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=2066
I like the end bit regarding bring on the soccer and Judo. Well, in soccer a Norwegian woman was censured (in America) for raising her shirt up in the same way guys do when they score. This DESPITE having a massive all encompassing sportsbra on. Talk about hypocritical. Apparently she was accused of all kinds of crap to do with being a bad example for women.Quote:
Originally posted by Malacasta
I just happened to be reading this site and came across this blog entry. I found it pertinent.
http://viv.id.au/blog/?p=2066
But yeah, the coverage (pun intended) of women's Beach Volleyball is always a hot topic. It came up here yesterday. mostly I was amazed at the pictures, which out of dozens only 10% at most showed the atheletes faces.
In my experience, women objectify men as much as men objectify women. Women use men for sex just as much as men use women for sex, people.
Oh and thank you for commenting on sitcoms Gromgor, I thought I was the only one that noticed that shit.