Computers and such

Can anyone provide some links to user-friendly computer advice sites? I don't like to open threads for personal questions. So perhaps you computer-savvy peoples can point us commoners toward some useful material on computer hardware and how to choose a new machine.

My biggest concern is getting some new processor that will be phased out in another month or two. Any kind of recommended sites (with articles) that provide info on how to balance the best computer for your needs and budget with unbiased opinion would be fabulous.

Part of the trouble is that computer advice that you can just go and read is inherently going to be nonspecific, and it's likely to be out of date already, too.

For instance, with your question, here's how it might be answered.

1) What sort of work are you trying to do with it? Heavy games? Number crunching / simulation? Word processing and basic internet work? On-site work with clients or suppliers?

Okay, now the question has to be split into four or five. Unfortunately, this sort of thing is never goign to be able to equal real live tech support. :(

www.tomshardware.com has many helpful articles for both computer junkies and computer gamers. You'll also find charts comparing processors to each other, so you know which one is supperior for what you want to do. If you want a gamers perspective, I've designed quite a few computers on different budgets if you want a list of parts on a certain budget. =)

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My biggest concern is getting some new processor that will be phased out in another month or two.

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This should not be your biggest concern. Why should it bother you if you get a processor that is phased out in a month or two, as long as the processor you get is a good value for the price and meets your needs? I mean, you can still buy pentium 4 processors and motherboards for them, even though they've been long-since replaced by Core and then Core 2.

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Originally posted by Grantref
This should not be your biggest concern. Why should it bother you if you get a processor that is phased out in a month or two, as long as the processor you get is a good value for the price and meets your needs? I mean, you can still buy pentium 4 processors and motherboards for them, even though they've been long-since replaced by Core and then Core 2.

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This is true, but it all depends what you're trying to do. Picking up on my earlier post:

* Heavy games?
You'll probably want a superb video card. Today's video card might play tomorrow's games, but yesterday's card probably won't.

* Number crunching / simulation?
Major work like ray tracing, molecule folding, and stuff like that, will need some serious grunt in the CPU. You don't want to buy yourself a P4 for this work.

* Word processing and basic internet work?
You have few needs. Get yourself something secondhand, P4 is fine, P3 might even do if you're on a tight budget. (I wouldn't recommend anything less than P3. Not worth the hassle.)

* On-site work with clients or suppliers?
Get yourself a laptop, and if your business depends on it, make sure it looks professional. But even so, a P4 laptop will probably suffice - Pentium-M certainly would. No need for dual core and stuff.


I saw an Intel ad for their dual core CPUs a little while back, but I can't trace it now :( Basically, it was saying that dual core means you don't notice when Windows Update is running. That's all. Worth spending heaps more dollars on? Not yet, I reckon. Most Windows apps can't exploit multiple CPUs because they're simply not written to. In fact, using dual core to perfect advantage is practically impossible in an office environment - you'd only get the true benefit if you're doing some kind of heavy analysis. (You may get _some_ benefit, but not a 100% increase in productivity.) Everyone's waiting on someone else. Waiting for RAM. Waiting for hard disk. Waiting for the user (this is very common). Waiting for the user to finish browsing Thresh Forums..... well, apart from that.

Well, either way you need to go dual core. You can get a cheap Athlon dual core processor for about 60 dollars, which will outperform any single core processor.

I don't necessarily agree with that, Sier - all my computers are single core, and they do everything I need them to. Granted, I don't play heavy graphical games; but we're running a number of servers off single core computers.

Thing is, though, you can usually upgrade components. So if you buy today's fairly-good computer, tomorrow you could stick in some more RAM, add another hard drive, upgrade the CPU, and so on. There's nothing you can't upgrade, although some things will be linked (you often can't upgrade the CPU to a new generation one without changing motherboard and memory); at times the border between "upgrading the old computer" and "buying a new computer and migrating the hard drive" gets rather blurred. But you're never locked into anything.

I'm not saying its completely neccessary. I'm saying that for 60 dollars, that's really a good deal on something that outperforms most, if not all of single core processors. Most people will gladly toss in an extra 20 bucks, and reguardless of the use of the computer the processor will usually be the most valuable part.

Now if you are a gamer, here is a good suggestion of graphics cards:
Heavy gamer: Nvidia Geforce 8800 ($280-600 depending on memory)
Moderate gamer: Nvidia Geforce 8600 GT (Will play anything and everything for the next 1-2 years, even games like Crysis on at least medium settings for $100)
Minor gamer: Just buy a motherboard with an integrated graphics card, won't cost any extra

You probably will need 2 gigs of ram if you are an avid gamer, 1 gig if you are not, reguardless of whether you use vista or not. If you are using xp or linux you can skimp by with half a gig.

Motherboards just depend on what parts you want to stick in the computer. They can range from 30$ to 200$.

All in all, you will spend anywhere from 250$ to 2000$ just depending on how powerful you want it to be. You can have a good, moderate gaming computer which will play all modern games and games for 1 year from this date for a good 400-500$.
I would not advice going single core unless you want your system to be gimped when it comes to gaming, although it won't be a huge problem unless you play games like crysis. But I'm willing to bet you want to chuck in an extra 20 bucks for it.

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Originally posted by Grantref
This should not be your biggest concern. Why should it bother you if you get a processor that is phased out in a month or two, as long as the processor you get is a good value for the price and meets your needs?

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That's a valid point. From my perspective though if I have some kind of heads up that a new processor will be introduced then the older ones will come down in price (I'm assuming). It seems they are cranking out new processors all the time, the E6550, the E6600, the E6750, now I think E6850, err, now a 4-cored processor is out there. These are Intel though.

Personally for me I will be spending 1000 to 1200 on a computer for gaming and to hopefully last me the next 3 to 4 years. I need to decide between building my own (feels risky) and buying a Dell. Buying oem gets me the blanket warranty which I like. However, dealing with individual component manufacturer's and possibly having to troubleshoot my own system in the event of problems isn't a plus. The current system I have selected is 1200 ($) for an E6550 with just 2 GB of 800MHz ram (can move up to 4). The card is an 8600 GT, but I don't know who it is made by... I think that processor is good but it might be an older one. However I get a 4 year warranty and a big software pack that includes Excel and Word (needed). Oh and 3 years McAfee virus. I know the importance of video cards too, but there is like 50 different manufacturer's with very different pricing.

Buying OEM is easy, building seems risky to me.

I personally have never bought a pre-built system. When I first started in computers, my dad had got an old system from a friend of his, which his friend had built. Since then, he and I built our own, and adamantly refusing to ever purchase a pre-built system for ourselves, as well as always recommended them to our friends.

About the only time we'd recommend buying something like a Dell or any of the other brands out there) was if the person had no intentions of upgrading the parts down the road (used to be an issue due to them all liking to use proprietary hardware and crap.. not so much of an issue now) and if they did not have someone who could be their Techie if it was needed. Of course.. building them yourself used to be cheaper.. now it's not as big of a price difference.

That said, I've never had any issues with a machine that I've built for myself. In doing so, I know *exactly* what I have in my machine, down to the tiniest detail, and had exactly what I wanted without having to sacrifice anything. Since I'm a techie geek I can troubleshoot my systems myself. Only real issue is when multiple parts go bad around the same time (and still under warranty), I have to make several differnet calls. However, I've never had to do that, but that'd be the only drawback in my eyes... having to call multiple places for getting RMA approval and such.

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Originally posted by Kerrida
About the only time we'd recommend buying something like a Dell or any of the other brands out there) was if the person had no intentions of upgrading the parts down the road (used to be an issue due to them all liking to use proprietary hardware and crap.. not so much of an issue now) and if they did not have someone who could be their Techie if it was needed. Of course.. building them yourself used to be cheaper.. now it's not as big of a price difference.

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Actually, there is a price difference. Last night my Dad showed me the invoice for a computer that Neighbourhood Watch had bought for its secretary. His gut feeling was that they'd paid too much, and I was able to point out a dozen entries that supported his gut. I could have put together a system of similar spec for half what they paid, and I probably could have given them something ample to their needs for a quarter. (They got a DVD-RW with the system, and they were buying a 19" widescreen LCD, which IMHO is a gross waste of money if you're doing secretarial work - who wants to write letters widescreen? You need height!) For under $300 (Australian - but at the moment that's pretty similar to US), I built a single-core system of pretty good spec; granted, that was already having the case and a couple of components (eg CD-ROM), but it could have been done from nothing for $400 or thereabouts.

The main thing about buying a complete system is that you can't downgrade it. If the system includes a DVD burner and a floppy drive, and all you ever do is read CDs, you can't downgrade to a CD-ROM and no FDD and save money. Building a system from components gives you full flexibility.

However, buying a _secondhand_ complete system is often a good bargain. If you don't need the latest and greatest, buy yourself a complete system and save heaps. (Of course, make sure you're buying from a reputable seller! We have a great little computer parts/systems place not far from us, but be careful of buying from random people on ebay or somesuch.) Even if the system isn't quite all you want - skimpy RAM, or slow hard disk, or won't read a DVD - it may be worthwhile.

Different strokes for different folks. It's all a matter of judging the individual situation and the precise needs, really.

Oh, you can definitely build things for exactly what you need for cheaper, but I was meaning if you try to build something with the equivalent specs to the store bought machines. In the past few years they've gotten to where they are similar in price whether you buy the parts and assemble yourself or get the pre-built stuff.

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Originally posted by Kerrida
In the past few years they've gotten to where they are similar in price whether you buy the parts and assemble yourself or get the pre-built stuff.

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The investigating I've done points to this as well. It used to be building was a much better alternative for quality/price value but that the gap has been shrinking over the years. Now the benefits aren't as pronounced and pre-built computers are offering better value than what once was.

I'm intrigued by building my own. It does sound fun and I could do it (assembly) with confidence, but it falls back on warranty and convenience.

Oh and tom's hardware that Sier provided is exactly what I was looking for. Comprehensive and well-written articles and reviews, advice, etc..

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Originally posted by Savaric
I'm intrigued by building my own. It does sound fun and I could do it (assembly) with confidence, but it falls back on warranty and convenience.

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All you need is a bit of screwdriver nous and some common sense, and you can put a computer together (eg the CPU will come with complete instructions on how to install it into a mainboard). However, even a reknowned geek can botch things when building a computer - *blush* Can't remember what I did, but I got something pretty obvious wrong, like forgot to plug something in, or something, and it took me rather too long to figure it out.

Warranty - as has been mentioned earlier, all your components should have warranties. Instead of having a wnty on the computer, which means you have to take the whole thing back if anything fails, you have a warranty on the hard disk, and a separate one on the RAM. So if you get a RAM fault, you pull out the failing stick, take it back, and meanwhile keep running on the other (well, assuming you bought two sticks, that is!). Yes, it can be more trouble, especially if you're unlucky enough to have two components fail. But if you bought a complete system and two components failed, chances are it'd still mean two services - because they won't fail at the same time. And if you only take back (say) the stick of RAM, you avoid the risk that they'll give you a completely new system that has a fresh hard disk (forcing you to set it up all over again - happened to us, happened to lots of people), and maybe even one with additional faults. Plus, added bonus! Some components come with pretty long warranties. You could well get three or five years on a lot of things, whereas a complete system purchase is three if you're lucky, and one year if it's a cheap system.

Convenience, though - that's where buying a complete system wins hands down. Well, probably. Certainly you can just grab something out of the box and use it; although personally I enjoy knowing every teensy weensy intimate detail of my computers (and for people in the know, that was deliberate - they're not disgusting at all), so that when things happen later, I have the knowledge. But if you're wanting to get started NOW, then buy a complete system. It took me a good day to set up out of components, although I could knock that down a good bit if I didn't keep breaking off to react to Threshold! :)

If anyone is interested I've decided to build my own computer with individual parts. Perhaps in less than a month I can post some results of what I would have gotten with a dell for 1200 and what I will have by building my own. Might be valuable insight into the build your own vs. buy retail decision (for people with minimul pc knowledge).

It seemed like you were interested in the specifications I gave you earlier. The site I usually rely on is newegg.com. Its easy to search for exactly what part you want. If you want to go intel, I suggest the core 2 duo so you have plenty of future in the processor. If you want to go AMD (My preference, less cost) then go with a AMD X2 series 5000 or later. The motherboard should match the processor type, but make sure that it supports PCI express x16 and it may be wise to make sure it supports more than 2 gb of memory. I don't think many, if any listed on the site have any problems running vista. Whenever you pick your motherboard, check what the maximum speed of memory it supports is and choose your memory by that number. As for your power supply..pick something 20(4) pins so it will work with any motherboard. *If* you invest in a 7800 or 8800 graphics card or greater, you will need a power supply 500 watts or higher. You can get away with 400 on anything else. Hard drive doesn't matter to much, but you may want Sata 3.0 interface.

If you have more than enough money to spend, I'd reccomend the new Geforce 8800 GT..which is running around 250 dollars right now. That graphics card will last you at least 3 years and it is currently a monster.

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Originally posted by Savaric
If anyone is interested I've decided to build my own computer with individual parts. Perhaps in less than a month I can post some results of what I would have gotten with a dell for 1200 and what I will have by building my own. Might be valuable insight into the build your own vs. buy retail decision (for people with minimul pc knowledge).

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Thanks, Savaric! This will be worth knowing. I can trot out the details of my latest build, too, including component prices; mine will show what you can do for a pittance... well, not quite, let's say for two pittances. Yours will show how spiffy a box can be made if you spend some decent money.

I'm personally interested, too. :)

Well I spoke with Dell people several times on the exact components of their build. Then I compared it to what I can build with the same money. It's a pretty big gap.

The card will be the 8800 gts 320 mb. The chip will be an e6750. Motherboard will probably take a lot of consideration. Rest looks pretty straight forward. Exception being the case. How do you pick a good case? I don't care about flashy neon lights or cool looks. Good ventilation and room for components is what I want.

Will I need an extra fan in this thing or is the cpu cooler and psu fan adequate? No overclocking on this.

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Originally posted by Savaric
Motherboard will probably take a lot of consideration.

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Well, obviously it has to match your CPU. Beyond that... it really depends on what you want to stick in this computer. If you're putting in a hot graphics card, for instance, you don't need much from the onboard. You'll probably get 100Mb ethernet, but if gigabit is of value to you, shop around and you'll probably find a mobo that provides all you want. Etcetera.

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Exception being the case. How do you pick a good case? I don't care about flashy neon lights or cool looks. Good ventilation and room for components is what I want.

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Measure the space on your desk, subtract a bit to allow for cables, and then get the biggest case that will fit. Although - Having found specs for a case that appears to fit, it might be worth knocking up a carboard mockup - cut down a box to the precise size of your proposed case, and physically place it on the desk, to see how well it'll all fit together.

I don't know if you have any way to know these things before you buy, but the ideal case is easy to open, close, and move components around in. It needs to have enough structure to withstand the rigorous stresses it'll get in everyday use, but not so much structure that it gets away from you.

Do you need front panel facilities? For example, USB ports, headphones jack, etc? You often need to match these across mobo and case. It can be quite handy, if you need it, but if it's not provided, tough.

What's the shape of the power switch? Is it convenient, without being accidentally pushable? Does the box orient itself in a convenient way? All fairly minor questions, really.

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Will I need an extra fan in this thing or is the cpu cooler and psu fan adequate? No overclocking on this.

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You're looking at putting in a hefty video card. You might need some extra cooling. As I'm not one to do that sort of thing, I really don't know... someone else will answer this part.

I recently upgraded my machine. I don't have my price list on me right now, but I know I spent right around $500 for everything I got.

eVGA nVidia 8500 pci-e16x 512MB DDR2
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+
Asus M2Ne-SLI mobo
1GB 667mhtz DDR2 (will be getting at least 1GB more after the holidays)
550watt PSU
250GB 7200rpm WD SATA HD

Vid card was on sale for like $120
psu was really cheap
Most of the cost was the CPU and mobo

My case is an old Antec Midtower that I bought when I last purchased a system. It has 3 fans (8cm if I recall), all simply pulling air out. System has plenty of breathing room, and temperature runs at about 93F for the CPU and 95F for the ram when not running games and such. It's not terrible, but I'd like to have more fans. However, the machine already is louder than my old one, mainly because of the larger CPU fan.

And I don't overclock.. though I have underclocked my cpu before. Old mach I had years ago was more stable when running just under the intended clock speed.

That's pretty good going, Kerrida.

What'd you pay for the HD? WD's a good brand, and 250GB is a decent size.

Fans of course are the biggest noise in any computer. (They are now, anyhow... in our little old Epson XT-clone, the hard disk was pretty noisy; and of course floppy drives grind a bit. But CD drives are moderately quiet, and hard drives are almost inaudible.) If you want it quieter, try one of the large low-speed fans - or if you have lots of dollars and want total silence, a huge hunk of copper sticking out the back does an excellent job of cooling.

I reckon the key to putting together ultra cheap, ultra powerful systems is to be a pack rat. Collect components when they're being chucked out cheap - or even better, when they're being chucked out! Foster the reputation of being a geek, and people start offering you their computers rather than throwing them out... ooh, this one has a great case, this one has a working optical drive, hey, here's a pretty good hard drive! :)

I paid about $80 for the HD.

And, yeah, the way I got out of having to spend a lot is I reuse parts, like FD & HD, DVD burner.. basically anything that is still useful and is still good.

I think the floppy drive has been with me for like 7 years or more. I kept my old HD (now I have a total of 500GB space.. just one is pata and one is sata), and dvd burner.. no sense in letting them go to waste.

Plus, it also helps that I will upgrade individual parts every so often. This was just a big upgrade round because I was upgrading my CPU, as it was an old AMD Athlon XP 1800+.

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Originally posted by Kerrida

I think the floppy drive has been with me for like 7 years or more.

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Have you used it? Because the dust that accumulates on the read head after that amount of time will typically destroy the first floppy disk you put in there, unless you give it a good shot with canned air first.

Lol of course I use it.

It houses my LILO boot config for when I want to boot my home box into Linux. I'd have it in linux permanently if my SO didn't need it.

After much data mining I have finally settled on my components. All of it is ordered except the psu and video card (out of stock).

* e6750 Intel duocore, 2.6 Ghz 1333
* Asus motherboard, P5K intel P35 1333/1033
* Western Digital Caviar (?) 160 GB SATA II, 7200 rpm
* Corsair TWIN2X2048-6400C4DHX 800 DDR II (2x1GB)
(40 rebate)
* Cooler Master Centurion 5 ATX Mid Tower
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119077

*eVGA 8800 GTS 320 mb 500 Mhz (out of stock)

I'm still mulling the psu. I think 500 watts is fine but I need to figure out the amperage deal. That card seems to want 26 amps, the psu I've selected (antec earthwatts 500w) has 32 amps split up on two rails. What's the dealio? Do I need 26 amps on a single rail? I'm not overclocking.

The total tally on this is about 950 for hardware. I'll give a final cost comparison once I got it together (to Dell's 1250).

Looks great, that system should give you a good 3 years of gaming and for the time being you will be able to play every game you get ahold of on high graphics (including crysis). I do hope you aren't using it for just word processing!

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Originally posted by Savaric
I'm still mulling the psu. I think 500 watts is fine but I need to figure out the amperage deal. That card seems to want 26 amps, the psu I've selected (antec earthwatts 500w) has 32 amps split up on two rails. What's the dealio? Do I need 26 amps on a single rail? I'm not overclocking.

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A bit of googling turned up the following, which seems to be a fairly comprehensive reference.

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.co...d.php?t=136602

I'm not an overclocker, nor a high-end-graphics person, so I don't really know much in terms of what you need. But yes, you would need 26A on one rail, I believe.

Excellent, thanks Ros. This is good info since most of these power units are multiple rails. Now I can complete my journey to the dark side.

A lot of the top end graphics cards have to have their own power source. The rails generally (as far as I know) go to the mobo.

I know my mobo had a single 24pin ATX connector, but also required a smaller 4pin connector for addition power to the cpu.

The video card will also likely require a 4pin connector to be connected to it so that it is pulling power directly from the psu as well. That I believe is what it is needing. My video card is a couple steps down (I have the 8500 with 512MB ram), and works great on a very cheap generic psu.

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Originally posted by Rosuav
A bit of googling turned up the following, which seems to be a fairly comprehensive reference.

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.co...d.php?t=136602

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I found another article which seems to contradict the above.
http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/Ca...?articleId=199

"However, the maximum power figure alone is not enough to determine whether a PSU is able to drive your computer. Each voltage rail requires attention, but the most attention needs to go to the +12V rail(s), since the processor and PCIe video cards receive their power from them. The power supply must output at least 18A (amps) on the +12V rail(s) for a mainstream up-to-date computer; more than 24A for a system with a single enthusiast-class graphics card; and no less than 34A when it comes to a high end SLI/CrossFire system. The output amperage figure we're talking about here is the combined figure for PSUs offering more than one +12V rail."

Actually this makes more sense since most of the psus have multiple rails and very few of them actually break the 18 amp marker.

Heh, I stand corrected then. This not being an area of my expertise, I was just googling and reading, same as you :)

Most of the parts arrived today. Newegg says its 3 day shipping but I ordered it Sunday afternoon. Pretty damn fast.

I can't believe what a tiny little thing a cpu is. It's only about 1.25x1.25", flat, and looks very unremarkable. I'm amazed at what it does.

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Originally posted by Savaric
Most of the parts arrived today. Newegg says its 3 day shipping but I ordered it Sunday afternoon. Pretty damn fast.

I can't believe what a tiny little thing a cpu is. It's only about 1.25x1.25", flat, and looks very unremarkable. I'm amazed at what it does.

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And most of what you see there is the packaging anyway. So you install this tiny package with a tinier bit of silicon inside - and then put a ginormous heat sink/fan assembly on top of it :D

Build is complete. Got everything put together and all updates/drivers installed. Actually putting the parts together is pretty easy. Getting the software in and everything tweaked takes more effort.

* e6750 Intel 2.6 Ghz
* Asus motherboard, P5K intel P35
* Western Digital Caviar 160 GB SATA II, 7200 rpm
* Corsair TWIN2X2048-6400C4DHX 800 DDR II (2x1GB)
* Cooler Master Centurion 5 ATX Tower
* Corsair 520 w psu
*eVGA 8800 GTS 320 mb

Total came to 1070 w/shipping, etc. Minus rebates it was 980. Dell system was 1250 for an E6550 processor, 250w psu, 8600 GT, 100 card. Note if I wanted to upgrade my graphics card I'd have to buy a new psu as well. Then someone certified has to install it to keep the warranty valid. There's quite a large disparity in what I got from building verse what I would have gotten with Dell. Granted, that was a 4 yr warranty and 3 years McAfee. All these parts I've chosen very carefully and are good brands with 3 yr warranties. This computer finishes booting in about 6 seconds, course it's pretty clean at the moment.

Hands down building is the way to go. Although this took a bit of trial and error on getting it all set up. Some of these parts are fragile and can be easily messed up during the build. You have to do a lot of research to choose the right parts and make the thing come together. However, I have learned quite a bit about pc components and installation from this. As a con I don't think just anyone can do it (i.e. the technologically challenged). I enjoy technology so I don't fret so much when troubleshooting. Others might end up pulling their hair out. Patience is a plus.

Finally this thing is pretty quick. Really great computer and runs cool. Handles call of duty 4 at max setting with no problem. Don't think that's a very specific comparison but it's fast as hell to me!

Thanks Sav! Love the level of detail. Couple of points:

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Originally posted by Savaric
Granted, that was a 4 yr warranty and 3 years McAfee. All these parts I've chosen very carefully and are good brands with 3 yr warranties.

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That's unusual for Dell, incidentally - they usually offer _less_ warranty rather than _more_. (I don't count 3 years of McAfee as much value when I'm building a system - it's a good service to offer to the canonical dumb Windows user, but 99% likely a geek has AV etc already, and will just stick another computer on it.) Also, most unusual to see a FOUR year warranty. Usually it goes 12 month, 24 month, 3 year, 5 year. All the same, I wouldn't put much monetary value on that last year of warranty. (Incidentally, what's the warranty on the HD? They often have five or more years on them.)

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Hands down building is the way to go. Although this took a bit of trial and error on getting it all set up. Some of these parts are fragile and can be easily messed up during the build. You have to do a lot of research to choose the right parts and make the thing come together. However, I have learned quite a bit about pc components and installation from this. As a con I don't think just anyone can do it (i.e. the technologically challenged). I enjoy technology so I don't fret so much when troubleshooting. Others might end up pulling their hair out. Patience is a plus.

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Quoted for emphasis. Doing it yourself is good when you can manage it, but if you bust anything, you're probably not covered by the warranty. If all you want is "get me a computer that works", then buy off the shelf, because you have to be at least somewhat geeky to put your own together.

I think the warranty on the WD hard drive is 5 years actually. Have to check. And I doubt Dell puts western digital in their builds.

Dell warranty is base 1 year. The 1250 quote is with an extended 3 year warranty, bringing it to 4. That's quite a bit extra actually, think 150 or 200 was added to the total cost. Kinda a rip when you consider that most parts already have a 3 year warranty. Also I didn't have to pay for the OS. If you buy Dell you're shelling out for the vista/xp that you probably already own.

Bad things about dells I think is that the vista cd they give you will only install on dell computers. If you get a new system later, you have to get a new vista.

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Originally posted by Sier
Bad things about dells I think is that the vista cd they give you will only install on dell computers. If you get a new system later, you have to get a new vista.

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Actually, that's true of a lot of manufacturers. In fact I think that Vista enforces this - an OEM copy cannot be installed anywhere else. MS try to do this with XP, too, in that they won't let you phone-activate an OEM copy if you say that you're upgrading your computer (they'll do it if it's retail). Of course, with XP you just have to say "My hard drive crashed and I'm reinstalling" - because that happens pretty often, and the MS "support" people know about it.

That's probably due to MS license scheme. The license for your copy of Windows is not user-based it's PC-based.

Using the same CD on different computers is a violation of the license. Now, one could argue that maybe one has another license that was purchased from MS, but MS would just ask: where's the CD for that license?

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Originally posted by Sier
Bad things about dells I think is that the vista cd they give you will only install on dell computers. If you get a new system later, you have to get a new vista.

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What a scam.

Dell has to follow MS's licensing requirements.

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Originally posted by karahd
That's probably due to MS license scheme. The license for your copy of Windows is not user-based it's PC-based.

Using the same CD on different computers is a violation of the license. Now, one could argue that maybe one has another license that was purchased from MS, but MS would just ask: where's the CD for that license?

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I would agree, if we were talking about using it on two computers _at once_. The licence is for one copy of Windows (whatever version it be), and trying to use that licence to use two copies simultaneously is wrong. (Unless you get a site licence - for instance, every one of our OS/2 computers uses the same key, because we just said "give us one CD and "X" licences - but even so, if you pay for 5 and you use 50, same issue.) But if you've paid to use Windows, why should it matter that you bought that as a bundle with the PC?

Scenario 1: Build a computer from parts, and buy a retail copy of Windows. Then later on, build a new computer, using some parts from the original, some new ones - and the same copy of Windows. All is well.

Scenario 2: Buy an off-the-shelf computer from Dell, IBM, Acer, or for that matter ANY manufacturer. It comes with a copy of Windows, and the price reflects this. (With Dell's system selection, you even get to see just how many dollars each option costs, fwiw.) Later on, you upgrade the computer by buying a new screen. Are you allowed to keep using the same copy of Windows? Of course you are, the screen isn't even internal. What if you add more RAM, uprate the video card, and stick in a new power supply. Yep, all's well. Some upgrades might force you to reactivate XP, but it's legitimate upgrades, you still have the same computer.

Scenario 3: Off-the-shelf computer. You haven't upgraded anything. Windows falls over spectacularly. You get the original CD and reinstall. You may have some trouble with an automated activation service, but MS can't stop you from continuing to use that copy of Windows. All is well.

Scenario 4: Off-the-shelf. You upgrade the hard drive. It's a combination of 2 and 3, so all's well.

Scenario 5: Off-the-shelf. You upgrade everything except the case (mainboard, CPU, all components, the works). The sticker is on the outside of the case, so the sticker is still on "this computer". Should be allowed to keep using it, right?

Scenario 6: Off-the-shelf. The case gets smashed, so you migrate all components to a new case. The hard disk still has Windows installed on it, so why should you go to the hassle of reinstalling? Just move the sticker.

Of course, you mustn't try to overlay 5 and 6 and use two at once. But why shouldn't you do one or the other? The real question here is: What is "the computer"? What's the sticker "belong" to?

Side point: There was one particular model of laptop that we worked on a little while back, where the Windows sticker was stuck onto a tiny cover, easily shifted from one computer to another. So in that model, we changed them around at the cost of one screw.... easy.

I think it is the motherboard more than anything that makes the difference. If you change motherboards, I think it can tell right off the bat.

Never mind whether it can tell or not, that's immaterial. There are two questions here:

1) Is it fair, is it legal, is it right by whatever means you wish to use, to "tie" a copy of Windows to a computer?

2) If so, then what defines the computer to which that copy is bound?

Generally, if the case and mobo are still together, it's the same computer. But we call a computer by the same name if we do a complete upgrade (for instance, our database server is called Stanley - if we buy/build a completely new computer to be our database server, we will call it Stanley). It's not the same computer though.

Can anyone tell me if you can transfer save files for PC games? Like on to a flash drive? I'm planning to reformat in the near future and don't want to lose my game data if I can help it.

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Originally posted by Rijiny
Can anyone tell me if you can transfer save files for PC games? Like on to a flash drive? I'm planning to reformat in the near future and don't want to lose my game data if I can help it.

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This is usually not a problem, though the exact location of saves varies from game to game. If you're lucky, the game will be pretty obvious and have 'sav', 'save', etc in the filename or containing folder name. If you have a lot of trouble locating saves, you can always save a game and then immediately search around for recently modified files.

Google or a game publisher/developer's forums might give more useful info for specific games.

Is there any problems with buying an OEM version of Windows XP? Would be nice to not have to pay 200 dollars for it >_<

Not really. The retail version of XP comes with tech support from Microsoft.

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Originally posted by Rijiny
Is there any problems with buying an OEM version of Windows XP? Would be nice to not have to pay 200 dollars for it >_<

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I don't know if you can actually buy an OEM XP now; but there wouldn't be much problem. But hey, if it's an OEM XP you want - I have plenty. Want one? It's yours for postage cost - so if all you want is the 25-character key, I can email/mudmail it to you. These are fully legit - removed from laptops.

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Originally posted by Grantref
Not really. The retail version of XP comes with tech support from Microsoft.

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I'm sure that's worth something, but I really don't know how much, to be honest.