I think we should give IQ tests to all prisoners in the world. Anyone that is above average should be released. We wouldn't want to hold back any gifted people with silly things like laws and morals.
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I think we should give IQ tests to all prisoners in the world. Anyone that is above average should be released. We wouldn't want to hold back any gifted people with silly things like laws and morals.
Darion said that the web site was apologetic and directed us to the comments about Bell being a gifted student and athlete as an example of this.Quote:
Originally posted by Wrent
I think we should give IQ tests to all prisoners in the world. Anyone that is above average should be released. We wouldn't want to hold back any gifted people with silly things like laws and morals.
I conceded (with the use of the word 'Given') that the website was sympathetic to the boys, but that the use of the words gifted student and athlete were actually accurate. And since so many sources are saying that he was a no-hoper thug and this was just his typical (Bell, or African American) behavior, I think it's also fair comment. Bell is more than just the boy who is accused of beating down a white kid after all.
I didn't say that all gifted students and athletes should be freed from jail, did I? The web site didn't say that did it? What's with the straw men?
I disagree plenty with Darion. But at least he isn't posting snarky, logically flawed, empty content flames.
First off, sorry Gaviani, I didn’t see you had posted till now.
I think we basically agree with each other, but because of the way I’m posting in bits and bobs and thus never actually make a complete case, it’s fair to interpret my brevity in ways I didn’t intend. For example, here where you say:
If there is a law then yes, the students should have been prosecuted using it. But when I said, “walk free” I meant that they walked away from that act without serious punishment. The principle had argued that they should be expelled, but the school board reduced their penalty to a 3 day in house suspension (which apparently means that not even their parents have to know they’ve been punished).Quote:
Originally posted by Gaviani
however, and this is only according to the article, it doesn't appear that that jurisdiction has any statute under which to charge the noose hangers with a crime.
I would argue that a reasonable person might anticipate the noose hanging would be upsetting to much of the student body (hopefully not just the African Americans) and should have been treated as the disgraceful act it was. The culprits should have been expelled, or suspended for a greater length of time, and have been made to apologize for recalling, whether they did it in jest or as a threat, a shameful part of US history in response to ‘blacks trespassing under the white tree’.
The noose hanging being dismissed as a prank and the protests that followed being met with threats from the DA, appear to say “Don’t expect responsible adults to pay attention to white racism. Shut up and know your place.” If the original concerns of the African American students had been addressed fairly then, I believe, the escalation would not have occurred. If the escalating acts had have been treated equally (the shot gun and the beer bottle incidents) again, I think it might have cooled things down.
I am not saying that the assault (if it occurred the way it is described, and if the Jena 6 were responsible for it) should be ignored. I do think that it was foreseeable.
I'm not questioning Bell's actual intelligence or athletic ability, but really, so long as any given individual has no prior criminal record you can generally paint that person in a positive light. I question the timeline given, though not only because it is somewhat biased toward the defendants in this issue - it just seems like no one knows exactly what happened in this series of events that spans several months.
That said, if the state had no grounds upon which to charge the students who originally hung the noose, that is just a bad beat on the part of the state and should have been handled at the school-district level as was originally intended. It does not excuse a gang beating that would go on to occur months later, and to draw an equivalence between the two distinctly different acts is fairly ridiculous.
I agree the noose hanging should have been dealt with by the school board. I don't think there is an equivalence between the noose hanging and the beat down. I do think they're related. I do think that if the noose hanging had have been dealt with properly, then the beat down would not have occurred.Quote:
Originally posted by Darion
should have been handled at the school-district level as was originally intended. It does not excuse a gang beating that would go on to occur months later, and to draw an equivalence between the two distinctly different acts is fairly ridiculous.
But it's more complicated than that. Because of the way this whole thing has gone down, it DOES seem that the authorities in this town are racist. Because there was a white tree, it seems that the racism also expressed itself in parts of the school culture.
I suspect that the moment the black kids decided to stand against the racism (by sitting under the tree and leading a sit down protest against the nooses) that the racist authorities in the legal system and the school board were obliged or tempted (by their ideology) to oppose them. I imagine that they hoped the kids would just shut up, but it didn't turn out that way because neither the white students, nor the black, would let it go.
When I read about this case on blogs sympathetic to the Jena 6, the authors argue that they wish the MSM would stop abbreviating the issue to the noose and the beating thus setting up the false equivalence you mention, because the larger case is about the difference in the way the escalations were treated, thus pointing to racism on the DA and school boards part.
I agree with this - the way most accounts of this series of events have been presented, it is made to appear that the noose incident was followed in short order by the assault. I'm not sure how you mean that there was racism on the part of the DA, as it was my understanding that the state had no way to prosecute the original offenders.Quote:
When I read about this case on blogs sympathetic to the Jena 6, the authors argue that they wish the MSM would stop abbreviating the issue to the noose and the beating thus setting up the false equivalence you mention, because the larger case is about the difference in the way the escalations were treated, thus pointing to racism on the DA and school boards part.
Here, here is where you said they should not see jail time. Way way back in this thread. You imply here that because it is possible that MONTH previous people were let off easy for things or were unable to be charged with any fitting crime that anyone who can even remotely link their crime to this incident should also be let free.Quote:
Originally posted by Malacasta
If that 22 year old man walks free, and the noose hangers walk free, then equal justice is that the Jena 6 should walk free.
This is NOT what happened. Everyone here, so far as I have been shown, was charged for the crime that they committed, the extent of charges based upon PRIOR CONVICTIONS and CRIMINAL HISTORY.Quote:
Originally posted by Malacasta
When a white person is charged with a misdemeanor for committing a crime, and an African American is charged with attempted murder for the same crime, then racism has reached the point where your skin color determines how the justice system will treat you.
Yes you could argue again that "its racist whitey are we surprised that the black kids have criminal records"... but that is completely absurd. Funny thing about criminal charges... they only fall on people that commit criminal acts.
Regardless of the positive and hopeful aspects of this Gifted Student-Athlete-Criminal's life, he is not excused from punishment because someone else some months ago was let go.
.
By your logic of "equal justice" any person arrested anywhere post-noose-hanging can just claim the right to walk.
"Hey Some white kid was an asshole! You can't arrest me for MY crimes if he was an asshole!"
Again I am not arguing that this town is not right next door to totally fucked up. But you -did- post saying you thought the Jena 6 should go free based on 'equal justice' ... Equal Justice is not "anti-justice". Crimes and jail time don't work on I.O.U.s You do not say well, someone messed up, so we'll intentionally mess up here again. Go ahead, guess we owe you a freebie!
Wrent, I'm pretty sure Malacasta is not suggesting that we let everybody off based on the fact that somewhere other people also commit crimes. Rather, the point goes to the fact that the noose-hanging led directly to the atmosphere of heightened racial tension which resulted in several different incidents happening over a prolonged period.
I would actually be inclined to agree with this position if the beating occurred shortly after the original incident. The space of several months' time makes me somewhat unsympathetic to the Jena 6, as they are referred to, as the group had months to consider the ramifications of a felony assault and then went for the gold anyway. "The heat of the moment" is something you can argue immediately after the original incident. I am also unsympathetic due simply to the fact that the victim in the assault was knocked unconscious with the FIRST BLOW by a single person, and THEN was attacked by six other people with kicks to the head and neck. They are extremely lucky they are not all up for second degree murder, as one good boot at the wrong angle could very well have basically jacked up all their lives.
I was gone for most of the weekend and somehow missed this. I absolutely do agree that the 22 year old who clubbed the black partygoer should have been picked up and charged. That having been said, the fact that he did not get pinched still does not change the fact that the Jena 6 also committed a crime, and I fully support law enforcement on this one. If I had to hold one group responsible for the climate that has been created, it would probably be the school.Quote:
For example, if a juvenile faces 15 years in jail for beating up on a white kid in school, then a male adult who beat up a black kid with a beer bottle should also be charged with aggravated assault or attempted murder.
If that 22 year old man walks free, and the noose hangers walk free, then equal justice is that the Jena 6 should walk free.
As for this:
You are far too intelligent to not realize that line of reasoning is a crock. "If they wanted to kill him, he'd be dead!" is not a mitigating factor anywhere in the world, as far as I know. I am not a law expert outside the UCMJ, but I believe attempted murder is not a crime of intent, it is a scaling of the level of violence inherent in an attack. Continuing to strike an unconscious person, especially after throwing the first punch in the altercation, is generally an automatic attempted murder charge to start as Ari mentioned earlier. In Massachusetts if you are wearing anything other than running shoes (I believe it is a weight-related measurement) and strike someone in the face with a kick, you are automatically charged with assault with a deadly weapon.Quote:
Bullshit it's attempted murder. If 6 people wanted to kill a single person, they'd do more than cause superficial injuries that allowed the victim to party later on that night.
Surely you don't seriously believe only the guilty are ever charged with criminal acts? Are you actually comfortable with getting rid of the judicial phase and just letting the police determine guilt?Quote:
Originally posted by Wrent
Funny thing about criminal charges... they only fall on people that commit criminal acts.