The God Fuse

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Originally posted by anthson
Everyone gets to decide what's morality for themselves if we have no standard. That's not a world I want to live in.

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I hate to have to break this to you, but you already live in that world. The only reason you don't seem to realize this is due to the fact that you live in a country (I'm assuming you live in the U.S. Please correct me if I'm wrong) that is roughly between 75% and 80% Christian (taken from the last U.S. census). This means that most of those people will share many of the same morals that you do, and you can happily go about living in your bub.... err I mean standard of morality.

Go elsewhere in the world, and you'll find plenty of people and other religions who have/make their own version of morality. You do know that slavery exists in other parts of the world, right? It wasn't just something that only existed in your U.S. history classes. You do know that there are plenty of cultures left who believe in polygamy, right? How about the morality of arranged marriages? You know, that thing that only a man and a woman are allowed to do for the sake of love and bearing children? Last I checked, arranged marriages still exist. Hmm what else? Oh, how about this one. Did you know there are still tribes that exist today that use homosexual sex as a rite of passage into manhood? And, with all the news that has been coming out of the Middle East as a result of this war, I'm surprised that you don't know that women are still officially treated as being inferior to men in other parts of the world. I've barely scratched the surface of alternate morality.

I think that perhaps you should become a missionary, Anthson. It looks like your standard of morality idea could use some help.

Vaer, do you realise you're actually supporting his statements? You are describing all these acts...

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Originally posted by Vaer
slavery ... polygamy ... homosexual sex as a rite of passage ...

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... as very definitely WRONG. You're not simply saying they are "different from the majority of Americans' morality". The tone of your post says that these things are wrong, but are accepted in some parts of the world. That's his point: That there is, inside you, some kind of absolute law that says that one thing is right and another wrong.

Rosuav, you completely missed Vaer's post. He didn't argue on whether you have the right morals or not, he was arguing about the so called "standard" of morals that are different in each and every place in the world.

And yet he was viewing these various standards in the light of something else. Something which deemed some of them _wrong_. Not just unpleasant or jarring to his personal way of thinking. Actually wrong.

Rosuav, to repeat Jidoe's point for him, you have completely missed the point of Vaer's previous post. He (Vaer) was presenting those examples as a contrast to the general standards of morality present in a predominantly Christian society. I understand the point you are trying to make in a roundabout way - I am here to tell you that you, in fact, are not correct.

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Originally posted by Vaer
I hate to have to break this to you, but you already live in that world.

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Dude, I already know. TRUST me. Every morning I wake up thinking "perhaps today."

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Originally posted by Vaer
The only reason you don't seem to realize this is due to the fact that you live in a country (I'm assuming you live in the U.S. Please correct me if I'm wrong) that is roughly between 75% and 80% Christian (taken from the last U.S. census). This means that most of those people will share many of the same morals that you do, and you can happily go about living in your bub.... err I mean standard of morality.

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As discussed previously, most of that percentile don't even make an effort to follow the Bible. They pick and choose their morals, too. I'm not sure where you get that I don't understand any of these things you listed (other than the homosex being a rite of passage. Gotta admit that's a new one on me). You can believe me when I say, as I've always said, this world is pretty fucked up. My given reason is precisely why.

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Originally posted by Rosuav
Vaer, do you realise you're actually supporting his statements? You are describing all these acts...


... as very definitely WRONG. You're not simply saying they are "different from the majority of Americans' morality". The tone of your post says that these things are wrong, but are accepted in some parts of the world. That's his point: That there is, inside you, some kind of absolute law that says that one thing is right and another wrong.

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I'm not supporting his statements at all. None of what I mentioned there had any of my personal views incorporated into it. If some of my personal views happen to coincide, that is another matter.

What I was doing was choosing different practices that have some relationship to morality. The practices I chose are such that one may logically assume that Anthson, as a modern Christian, would find to be immoral.

All I was doing with this was illustrating that there are, in fact, many different standards of morality. Christianity is by no means the sole standard, and nor will it ever be. In an increasingly globalized world, standards will continue to change and meld, but unless a single global power arises (God forbid... heh pardon the near pun) that is able to enforce a single standard of morality, there will never be a standard beyond that of the communities to which you belong. Unless, of course, you choose to conform to whatever the standard of the place you happen to be in at the time is. That would mean you lack conviction, though.

Whether you want to agree with me or not, had you been born to an extremist Islamic family in the Middle East (the kind we read and hear about, I realize that not all followers of Islam do this), you would be treating women like shit right now and thinking nothing of it. Likewise, had you been born in one of those tribes I mentioned, you would have by now been the sexual object of one or two men who were chosen to take you out into the wilderness and teach you how to be a man. You also may have, by now, taken your turn, according to tradition, and escorted a boy of your own into manhood. You also would have taken great pride in both events.

You are merely the product of your environment and nothing more, however you'd like to justify it.

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Originally posted by Vaer
The practices I chose are such that one may logically assume that Anthson, as a modern Christian, would find to be immoral.

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For the last time, I am NOT a modern Christian. I can't stand Christians today and they get on my nerves far worse than atheists do. I'm a zealot. I'm a hardcore, fierce enforcer. I do NOT dick around when it comes to my faith. If I have to repeat myself to educate another person, I will, so I am.

I am not a Christian.

That term belongs to a social club of folks I wish to have no association with. The term used to mean something and it angers me greatly that, through watered-down perversion of true belief, it no longer does. You have to understand that what I believe, I keep it close to me. Brilliantly. Passionately. It is an intense guiding light in my life and not just a Sunday catch phrase. It has burrowed a hole in my heart and it guides me and keeps me. I stand in awe and confess before it. I am not your modern Christian.