N. Korea Nukes?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kestra
The current foreign policy is far more serious and has more dire implications for South Korea than for the US. While I understand one must take care of one's own firstly, there's more at stake than US security.

---

On this, I completely agree with you - there IS a great deal more at stake than American national security, from a global perspective - but the attitudes of the two countries that have the very MOST at risk - Japan and South Korea - are 100% in favor of America's push for sanctions, going so far as to say they have the "full support" of their respective governments (one of the above links should have that quote; if not, I'll find it for you later, if you want). Granted, I think America has a very real and compelling stake to be worried about, here, but if the countries that are verifiably within Kim Jong Il's ballistic range are already implementing sanctions on their -own- [Japan] or prostrating themselves before the international community to do so [SK], and calling NK a "grave threat" to their state [Japan], don't you think that maybe that they feel, from THEIR understanding of this crackpot (which is probably better than ours, being both geographically closer and culturally less dissimilar), that if their safety is that endangered...perhaps it's a valid concern?

Also, I duly note that nowhere in your last screed, Jolen, do you address the fact you pulled a patent bait-and-switch at your imagined "attack" on your "patriotism." Still waiting for your admission of guilt and retraction.

Quote:

---

The current foreign policy is far more serious and has more dire implications for South Korea than for the US. While I understand one must take care of one's own firstly, there's more at stake than US security.

---

The thing is Kestra, US security interests in this case are in line with regional interests in the same regard. The idea that Kim Jong-Il is not a legitimate threat is wishful thinking at very best, as he is pouring his country's resources into military development quite literally at the expense of his citizens. I agree that South Korea has a far more vested interest in maintaining stability in that region than the US, but it does not mean that our interests do not coincide.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Malacasta
I also wonder if perhaps China didn't impact on NK's decision to go nuclear. If China told NK that it wouldn't defend NK against a US attack (I doubt China wants to go to war with the US) then NK might have figured that it was on its own, and getting a nuke was its best defence.

---

This to me is my biggest concern with the whole thing. Kim Jong Il doesn't seem to have any sort of measured restraint in what he is willing to do. His only limitations have been in that he didn't have the tools to do anything. China knows what a nuclear war with other countries will mean. The US knows. Israel knows. All of the major nuclear powers know what it means. I just don't see Kim Jong Il as having a concern for what it means. He has always struck me as a child wanting attention. Now he has nukes. "Look! Look at me! I'm N. Korea!!!"

Like a child with a loaded handgun. I don't believe he understands the power he's swinging around.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gromgor
I don't believe he understands the power he's swinging around.

---

Oh yes he does. He's worked many years on this pran. It is a very precise and compricated pran.


[Sorry, couldn't help it.]

I think KJI is far more clever and intelligent that he is given credit for. He's been playing the US and the UN for decades now, while secretly producing enriched uranium, at the same time still receiving oil from the states.
I don't think he's anybody's fool.

He is more clever than people may be implying on these forums, but really, consider the wisdom of alienating China, the USA and all the other N-Block countries with his attitude.

Also consider the forcing of his neighbours to act to bring his ill-planned and carelessly executed experiments with dangerous, potentially military technologies to a halt. By any means necessary.

The only reason Japan is not engaging in war games and the other sort of sabre rattling here is because technically it has no armed forces at all. It is doing everything it can to put pressure on Kim Jong Mentally Il to sit the fuck down and play with his toys like a nice little dictator.

I don't think anyone wants another war in East / Southeast Asia just now.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Snrrub

But I think the more general point here, is that western allies share nuclear technology with each other, which is something that the west, as a community, forbid countries like Iran and North Korea from doing.

---

Well, I think it must also be said that this sharing was a method the west found fair and neutral to 'disarm' one another at a pace. No one was going to be the first to say, "okay, we're done with nukes! We trashed all ours." So, that 'sharing' in part was to level the field in hopes of stopping further escalation. Also, the relocation of some nuclear weapons to low key and very neutral countries (Canada) was done by other countries also.... again, as part of a mutual, slow paced attempt to disarm.

Quote:

---

So... where's the threat? Kim's blustering? Are we seriously going to lower global politics and compare it to school yard antics? A failed, primitive nuke and a missile program that is a joke constitute a credible threat to world stability? Please. Tell me another joke. Mebe about a priest and a rabbi?

---

Please say you're joking. Your very statement here is amazingly moronic. Your words = "He is only TRYING to be able to fuck the whole world up! He is pretty close, but he can't do it just yet. So, not a threat."

Please... tell me you're not fucking serious?

Nuclear test --- Failure or Sucess, it does not matter one SINGLE BIT. N.Korea is at minimum gainfully working towards having nuclear arms. The gov't there has on several occasions THREATENED the safety and security of it's neighbors and beyond.

Last I checked, dangerous weapons in the hands of dangerous countries is a bad situation.

Quote:

---

Well, I think it must also be said that this sharing was a method the west found fair and neutral to 'disarm' one another at a pace. No one was going to be the first to say, "okay, we're done with nukes! We trashed all ours." So, that 'sharing' in part was to level the field in hopes of stopping further escalation. Also, the relocation of some nuclear weapons to low key and very neutral countries (Canada) was done by other countries also.... again, as part of a mutual, slow paced attempt to disarm.

---

Could you be more wrong? The West was not 'disarming' one another as America was doing all the giving and sharing. This was nothing but proliferation for the sake of opposing the U.S.S.R. Please don't try to reason away America proliferating nuclear weapons as some sort of 'benevolent' attempt to disarm the world or the West.

Quote:

---

Please say you're joking. Your very statement here is amazingly moronic. Your words = "He is only TRYING to be able to fuck the whole world up! He is pretty close, but he can't do it just yet. So, not a threat."

... etc.

---

Kim is executing the lost art of brinksmanship, which we and the U.S.S.R. engaged in HEAVILY during the Cold War. Make threats, build up your nuclear arsenal, yadda yadda. Did either side seriously think about using them? Not the people with their fingers on the button. They knew that by bluffing with such weapons, they could accomplish alot politically. Kim is -far- from crazy. He knows exactly what he is doing and eventually, he is going to get exactly what he wants. He also knows the power of nuclear weapons, both in their raw destructive capability and political leverage.

In the end, Kim will sit in North Korea, attempting brinksmanship on the region and the world, making veiled threats with ZERO reason or intention to carry them out. What does he get for slagging one or two cities? Nothing except a North Korea shaped parking lot in response. He knows this. So he will NOT do anything. If any military action happens in the Korean peninsula, it will not be made by North Korea.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Wrent
Nuclear test --- Failure or Sucess, it does not matter one SINGLE BIT. N.Korea is at minimum gainfully working towards having nuclear arms. The gov't there has on several occasions THREATENED the safety and security of it's neighbors and beyond.

Last I checked, dangerous weapons in the hands of dangerous countries is a bad situation.

---

Also, the US and other leading nations in nuclear knowledge and capability realize the dangers of testing and radioactive exposure consequences. They would be remiss in NOT policing safeguards with regards to ignorant countries who want to "get up to speed" and have the same capabilities without understanding the consequences.

Still waiting on Jolen to admit he made a bullshit straw man out of a charge against his "patriotism."

Still waiting for that retraction.

Not gonna let this one go.