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As opposed to the South, who began a war based only partly on racism and partly on the fact that they were being outpaced industrially and population-wise due to the failure of Dixieland to go through an industrial revolution.Quote:
Whereas Hitler WAS predjudiced, the entire foundation of the war he started was due to racism and his symbol actually represents a racist idea.
Slavery wasn't particularly a racist thing, slavery may have died in the south but it had been around for centuries before it came to the Americas. As someone has said before, times were different back then, it was morally sound to own a slave, and prejudices DID exist because people viewed slaves as property, less than human. And history shows that slaves were not always people of a different race, or a different country, slavery was also once used as a punishment for criminals of their own countries and peoples.Quote:
Originally posted by Darion
As opposed to the South, who began a war based only partly on racism and partly on the fact that they were being outpaced industrially and population-wise due to the failure of Dixieland to go through an industrial revolution.
I am not condoning slavery, or racism, or anything of the like, but do remember that although these people had different ideas from the North they were still OUR PEOPLE. You may not have been born in the South or from the south, but they were still your ancestors. Not EVERYONE who fought for the confederate flag fought for slavery, they fought for their homes, their families, their very way of life. Some families needed slaves to prosper and fought for their farms.
Once again, I don't approve of slavery in any way, but back then people were raised to not only approve of it, but to participate in it. Whether or not they were morally right or wrong, they grew up in a generation where slavery was viewed as an okay thing. Just like slaves were okay in Ancient Egypt, in Ancient Rome, and countless other countries and cultures that I don't see you all condeming.
The Civil War was a HUGE cornerstone in American History, and it is something that everyone learned from in one way or another; so is it good to forget this point in history because you viewed the South as selfish and evil, racist people? I don't think they were evil and racist, I think they were doing what they were raised to do, accepting what they were raised to accept. I, for one, am happy that slavery was abolished and I'm happy that black people are an accepted part of the community; but I hope you realize we've come a long way in this country, to far to get offended by a flag once waved by the Confederacy.
I recommend watching the movie "The Blue and the Gray", it may go a long way to opening your eyes to how much the people on both sides of this war suffered. Try not to forget that these people you condemn were your people. South, North, White, Black, they're all our people.
Edit: Obviously some of what I said were directed specifically towards us Americans. But I mean what I say. Imagine for a moment if the south HAD won this war. Slavery may still be a part of this community, and we would all accept it because we were brought up in a world where slavery was acceptable.
We are what our forefathers (and mothers) have taught us to be.
Not to mention as a way of paying debts. You owe money? Sell yourself as a slave. You owe heaps of money? Sell your children too.Quote:
Originally posted by Rijiny
... slavery was also once used as a punishment for criminals of their own countries and peoples.
And then hope that your fortunes change so you can buy yourself back.
But we are not talking about the rest of the world, we are talking about America. Please tell me you are not going to extrapolate the point by saying that slavery in America isn't a particularly racist thing.Quote:
Slavery wasn't particularly a racist thing, slavery may have died in the south but it had been around for centuries before it came to the Americas.
My maternal grandparents are descendants of Russians who fled to Hungary during the Bolshevik revolution, and my paternal grandparents are Greeks who wound up obtaining US citizenship by fighting as partisans for the Allies (specifically the American OSS) during WWII. So, no. Southerners are not my ancestors. Neither are northerners.Quote:
You may not have been born in the South or from the south, but they were still your ancestors.
I do not personally dislike anybody based on their geographic area of origin, and have never said or implied any of the adjectives you list off. I'm not sure if this is rhetorical or directed at me specifically. I'll assume rhetorical and move on.Quote:
so is it good to forget this point in history because you viewed the South as selfish and evil, racist people?
I think I've got that part down, actually.Quote:
I recommend watching the movie "The Blue and the Gray", it may go a long way to opening your eyes to how much the people on both sides of this war suffered.
To be honest, I'm not sure what you are implying here. I do not dislike the South, either in general or on principle. A significant portion of the debate that sparked the Civil War was, however, based around the issue of slavery and tariffs instituted to protect the north's burgeoning industry that were essentially slowly crushing the Southern economy.
More broadly, it had to do with states' rights/minority rights and economic policy. More specifically, what happened was that the Southern economy was being knocked around by ridiculous tarrifs that allowed northern industry to remain competitive in the realm of global free markets. The abolitionist movement became huge. Slaves were the South's major source of labor, and raw goods its main export. Both were threatened, thus the outcry over losing the fragile balance of power in the legislative branch.
And to be honest, the Civil War was more of a showcase of the massive failure of the American military machine than anything else.
That pretty much sums up what I was implying.Quote:
Obviously some of what I said were directed specifically towards us Americans. But I mean what I say. Imagine for a moment if the south HAD won this war. Slavery may still be a part of this community, and we would all accept it because we were brought up in a world where slavery was acceptable.
We are what our forefathers (and mothers) have taught us to be.
My ancestors actually fought in the North. I am not trying to defend anything, more or less I'm trying to say that some people don't view the Confederate flag as a racist thing. Its a piece of history, and history is something I personally love. Don't take things so personally, the things I said weren't entirely directed at ONLY you.
I don't believe war is ever a good thing or ever the right course of action, but people DID suffer for the ideas that they fought over. What I DO believe is that history is important because we learn from the past, and we learn the most from the bad things that happen. Although it would be nice if we were all ignorant and nothing bad ever did happen, sorry to say that will never happen.
I actually hate the whole concept of Racism. Especially because people take it too far, and hold on to the past too much. I say learn from the past, don't cling to it, the past is something that should be let go so that we can all move forward. Unfortunately, most people tend to go to one extreme or the other.
And I actually was wrong about something I said earlier. Hitler didn't start the war and it wasn't because he hated Jews, it was because he wanted Germany to be something great again, so he led people to believe it was the Jews who were bringing the country down and moved to exterminate them. Of course, I do not wish anyone to take that the wrong way, because I do believe that all intents aside that Hitler was a vile and evil man. But he did have huge dreams for his country.
I don't know how to respond to that.Quote:
Originally posted by Rijiny
I actually hate the whole concept of Racism. Especially because people take it too far
Seconded.Quote:
I don't know how to respond to that.
I just want to say that my original arguments towards Savaric's statement (found at the beginning of this thread) were directed just as much to Southern morons who give me and other southerners a bad name. I wish they would get their heads out of their asses just as much as I wish people who see the confederate flag and think of it only as a symbol of racism would realize there is much, much more to it than that.
In regards to the Confederate flag, I don't see it as anything particularly meaningful except as a symbol of a failed state. I guess I don't really understand how it's a symbol of "we took a stand!" pride. The Civil War is long since over. One could easily look at the other side of the matter and say that it's a symbol of selfishness in that the original desire was to renege on a contract previously thought of as unbreakable.
I tried to tiptoe around this. I'll give it another go. This time in a rather simple and direct way:Quote:
Originally posted by Snrrub
Does this include the swastika?
I don't disrespect the Swastika but I would disrespect a Nazi with lethal force.