Winds of War in the Middle East

The thing that I really do not understand is why these terror groups and the states that all but sponsor them feel that they can just bomb Israel and get away with it. True Israel has given back a lot of the land they've won, but Israel is no push over. As stated above they are by far the strongest force in the region AND they are not above using the same brutal tactics that the terror groups use themselves.

Now I am not saying that the Israelies are a bunch of terrorists, I definately do not think they are. As a matter of fact I have a tremendous amount of respect for the way in which they answered back to what has happened. I can't help but think that if Canada lobbed a few missiles at the United States that we would sit back and just let it happen, or if Mexico decided to send terror squads across the border in Texas capturing American soldiers that we wouldn't respond.

I think that saying Israel can't respond the way they have is bullshit, they have been attacked - their citizens killed, their soldiers captured. They have a duty to -both- to make sure that their citizens are protected and their soldiers if killed are avenged. Remember folks that in Israel military duty is compulsory, and because of this I think the Israeli government and its people have an extra special duty to make sure that their soldiers are protected.

Israel didn't attack, they were attacked. I feel no pity for Lebanon or Syria. The UN should be sanctioning those two nations, Israel has been remarkably patient.

Quote:

---

I feel the axis of evil Iran-Syria-Hizbulla-Hamas must be stopped - and now is the time.

---

Quote:

---

My view is that the time has come to utterly wipe out ALL of those groups

---

Sigh!! I will try and clarify my sarcastic comment. 2 countries and 2 terrorist groups were lumped together in one post, and the opinion that was in the other post made no distinction, hence my comment.

Quote:

---

You shouldn't lump all of the Middle East with those terrorist groups. That kind of racial stereotype will only lead to more wars. The last thing we need is more skinhead attitudes.

---

I've never in my life lumped together terrorist groups with a whole country. That's the job of airport security. **another sarcastic point, for those keeping score!!**

Quote:

---

Good luck, stay safe, kick their asses.

---

I second that.

Nothing but respect for Israel and the Israeli military. From one soldier to another: roll them hard and make it stick. You've got the support of this American-flag waver.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kestra

I've never in my life lumped together terrorist groups with a whole country.

---

Well, you did it in this thread, so you can no longer say that.

In your zeal and haste to make a personal attack, you did just that.

As Darion already said, you do nothing but make every politics thread you join worse. You either make unjustified personal attacks or parrot back obvious political talking points from some pamphlet or extreme web site. Shape up or ship out.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gillan
As stated above they are by far the strongest force in the region AND they are not above using the same brutal tactics that the terror groups use themselves.

---

This is why I have a lot of respect for the Israeli's. They'll give back what is given and then some. They have taken an incredible amount of shit for a long time but it's over now. We need to get this over with and do some serious clean up in that region.

Not sure what Kestra was saying, but in my darkest moments I do say wipe out the palestinians. But more feasibly just push those assholes into Syria or some other shithole they belong in (but no one wants the Palestinians- it's my understanding even the Arab community doesn't receive them well). I wish I hadn't lost the link but they did a poll, a general population poll, and something like 85% of Palestinians approved of kidnapping the soldier, the first one hamas took. Their own government has raised a very good point as well- that Hamas was democratically elected. You can't ignore shit like that. All I can think of is in batman begins where the "league of shadows" comes in to cut the infection out. Of course it's easy for me to say that. I don't see the women and children. Yea, but I did see them celebrating when 911 happened.

It'll have to get much, much worse before it will get better. I just can't ever see it getting better in my lifetime or my kids lifetimes though. Sooner or later these animals are gonna get nukes, maybe not in 5 years, maybe not in 20 years, but it's going to happen. We should be thinking about that and not some goddamn tv show or how much it costs to fill up our 8 cylinder full-size pickup trucks.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kestra
Sigh!! I will try and clarify my sarcastic comment. 2 countries and 2 terrorist groups were lumped together in one post, and the opinion that was in the other post made no distinction, hence my comment.

---

I'd like to point out that the two countries that were "lumped together" with two terrorist groups are two countries that are widely known for supporting terrorism. Also, war against a country is not a war against every individual that lives in that country. Obliterating a country is not the same as killing an entire race of people. I'd elaborate on the various races that live in Iran and the other countries that those races live in, but I think that would be overkill.

I think the point is clear. Terrorism is bad. We need to deal with terrorism harshly. There is no diplomatic resolution to terrorism.

I've quoted this before on the forums, but it is appropriate here:

Quote:

---

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill, English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Gadiantor


I've quoted this before on the forums, but it is appropriate here:

Quote:

---

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill, English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

---

---

I still remember the first time I read that when I was a freshman in college, taking some early political theory class. Then a few months later, Desert Storm happened. That was an object lesson that really made John Stuart Mill sink in.

Ok, back to the topic. One thing I don't understand is how easily people shrug their shoulders and accept collateral damage. I know in war civilian death is unavoidable but blaming it entirely on the otherside is also not justified. Right now Israel is also destroying roads and buildings, and many people have become homeless. I don't see how you can shrug that off and say that's not Israel's fault.

Let me give an example. Let's say there is this group of five who are enemies of your country and people. Let's say they reside in a civilian area. At which level it is moral to attack them with missile?

1) When there is 1 civilian nearby.
2) When there are 10 civilians nearby.
3) When there are 100 civilians nearby.
4) When there are 1000 civilians nearby.
5) When there are 10000 civilians nearby.
6) When there are 100000 civilians nearby.
7) Or you don't care?

I'm very serious with this question.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by ejda
Right now Israel is also destroying roads and buildings, and many people have become homeless. I don't see how you can shrug that off and say that's not Israel's fault.

---

Israel is bombing the Le'dakhia quarter in Beirut which is known to be a Hizbullah stronghold. Nobody there is innocent, especially considering Hassan Nasrallah is hiding there. As for the roads - The only roads that have been bombed are roads that could have been used by Hizbullah to transfer the kidnapped soldiers up to northern Lebanon and roads that lead to Syria, since Syria is, as I write this, supplying more and more missiles to Hizbullah.

I shrug that off and say it is not Israel's fault.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalaena
Is this an issue that is being heavily discussed by the regular folks in Israel? Are there any leaders in Israel who are against the war? For those who are for it, what are the arguments they are using? I know this isn't a casual thing, so I'm very interested in hearing how the people are reacting.

---

I didn't forget you!

Currently, there is a consensus in the country that is pro-attack Hizbullah, especially since the organization is bombing our cities and there are dozens of casualties daily.

There are a few leaders from the extreme left-wing and the Israeli-Arab leaders who are against the conflict, but their voice isn't heard - most because of the large consensus there is for the continuation of the operation. They are claiming that the operation will not lead to the release of the abducted soldiers (I agree with that statement) and that the continuation of the operation will only lead to more casualties - which is also true.

However, they do not understand the mission - which is to completely disarm Hizbullah and not only releasing the soldiers. Releasing the soldiers through prisoner exchange is a win for a terror organization and we cannot allow that.