Lame or Legit for a Player to refuse to play a certain position?

This is an interesting issue:

Team prepared to put Soriano on disqualified list

Quote:

Soriano, a four-time All-Star second baseman, was listed as batting leadoff and playing left field on a lineup sheet posted in the Nationals' clubhouse before Monday night's 11-5 loss to the Los Angeles Dodgers.

But when the Nationals took the field in the top of the first, Soriano wasn't out there. With play just about ready to start, left field was empty.

...

The Nationals already have an All-Star second baseman in Jose Vidro, so they told Soriano they want him to move to the outfield, and he indicated he doesn't want to do that. But Monday provided his most concrete -- and visible -- objection.

...

The Nationals acquired Soriano from Texas in a December trade that sent outfielders Brad Wilkerson and Terrmel Sledge and pitcher Armando Galarraga to the Rangers. After the deal, Washington made it clear that Vidro would keep his spot at second; Soriano made it clear that he wasn't happy.

The guy was traded, so he didn't get to pick his team. He is a 2nd baseman, and clearly a very valuable one (check his stats).

He has a consisten OPS over 800, has hit near or over 100 RBI 4 years in a row (only been pro 7 years), has averaged over 35 HR a year for 4 years, and a batting average close to 300. For an outfielder, those are very good numbers. For a 2nd baseman, those are INSANELY GOOD NUMBERS.

If I could hit like that and play 2nd base, I'd definitely want to play 2nd base. Those are hall of fame numbers for a 2nd baseman. For an outfielder they aren't.

So what do you think? In a situation like this, is it legit for a player to refuse to be moved to a position that could very well negatively impact the long term perception of his career? Or is he under contract, and that's that?

Personally, I think its legit. He signed a contract to play 2nd base (granted, with a different team). If he gets moved to outfield and goes a long time not playing 2nd base, it would get harder and harder to move back to 2nd base. He is a virtual guaranteed all star and 2nd base, but not in the outfield. I would not want to be put in a situation where all my skills were not put to use and as a result was less able to make All Star teams and potentially the Hall of Fame.

It depends on what your focus is. To my understanding his offense is tremendous for a 2B but his defense is horrendous.

He was traded, he never requested a no-trade clause in his contract or was never able to attain one. I would have more sympathy for him if he had a no trade clause and the Rangers wanted to move him/forced him to move.

Here he knew, or his agent should have known, that if he was traded to another team with a good defensive 2B that there was no way he was playing that position.

For the record I wish that the Eagles would have disqualified TO forever, not just released him.

If he was upfront about it (which it seems like he was), then its all good, a team could take that into account and his inflexibility would lower his trade value. If the team took him and knew about his feelings, then they were gambling and when you gamble you can get burned. We'll see where the showdown leads I guess, its not going to do him any favors if he walks though.

I don't know exactly what the no trade contract rules are, but I think you might have to be in the league for a certain period of time, 5 or 7 years, and he probably didn't qualify.

Yeah, I don't think he's been in the league long enough to get a no-trade clause negotiated in. If he had one of those, it would have been moot, because he couldn't have been traded.

It does seem like he was very up-front and honest about it. No pro team makes a trade for a player without talking to the player. You don't want someone who doesn't want to play for your team. They basically took a gamble that they'd be able to convince/force him to play a different position than 2nd base.

I wonder if his contract with the rangers said anything like "this is a contract for Soandso to play 2nd base for the Rangers."

I also don't know how good or bad his defense is, but if he plays 2nd base at all, anywhere, surely its at least passable. His offensive numbers are awesome for a 2nd baseman, and just good for an outfielder. I can totally see why he wouldn't want to move.

From random peanut gallery feedback here:

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=11151

Some good points imho:

Quote:

Tom (San Antonio): Hey, wait a second guys. Let us not forget that he is a paid professional (regarless of what you think about him). I don't see any pitchers being asked to play catcher. You don't see your family doctor giving bed baths in the local hospital. I suppose that as a professional his has some rights to pursue his carrer in a manner that he thinks is in his best interest.

...

Greg Baker (Villa Park CA): The Nats traded for Soriano hoping to unload him for pitching, but failed to dump him prior to Spring training. Now they're stuck in an untenable situation.

(If this is true, the the Nats DEFINITELY deserve what they got.)

I love stupidity like this:

Quote:

Rich (Cranston, RI): I am so sick so hearing about Soriano. He is the most overrated player in baseball. He is a horrible 2nd baseman. Take him out of that Texas ballpark and put him in Washington and I bet at most he is .250-15 HR-60 RBI guy. His OBP is awful and he is just a big baby. I hope they do put him on the disqualfied list.

O Rly? He played for the Yankees from 1999 -> 2003 (full time starting in 2001), and for Texas in 2004-2005.

Code:

2002 (Yankee) - 39 HR, 102 RBI, .300 avg, .879 OPS, 41 stolen bases 2003 (Yankee) - 38 HR, 91 RBI, .290 avg, .863 OPS, 35 stolen bases 2004 (Texas) - 28 HR, 91 RBI, .280 avg, .808 OPS, 18 stolen bases 2005 (Texas) - 36 HR, 104 RBI, .268 avg, .821 OPS, 30 stolen bases

Yeah, clearly he can only produce offensively when playing for Texas...

Well, the fight is over.

Soriano agrees to play left for Nationals

Quote:

JUPITER, Fla. -- Alfonso Soriano agreed to play left field Wednesday and was in the Washington Nationals' lineup for his first spring training game, two days after refusing to move from second base.

I really think he should have stuck to his guns and made the Nationals pay the price for their:

1) Trading for someone at a position you already have an all-star, with the intention of using him as bait for a different trade.

2) Stupidity for trading away popular players to get a 2nd basement to play outfield.

Quote:

Originally posted by Aristotle

I wonder if his contract with the rangers said anything like "this is a contract for Soandso to play 2nd base for the Rangers."

I would think that it probably doesn't include that specific wording. It probably says something like that he's an employee of the Texas Rangers organization, and will play baseball for them, but I don't think it would include the position. If it did there would be potential contract loopholes if the team got you to change positions and they would either 1) need to sign a new contract to amend the original or 2) be screwed and the person would be able to get out of their contract or renegotiate a better one for the different position. Though, being around as long as baseball has, it might, and the contracts might simply just have provisions to cover this work around, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if they say, "Any position we deem him suitable for" or something like that. So if down the road you have a catch who's knees are getting shitty, you can move him so he can be a lazy ass over at first base.

The most amusing part now, I guess, is that he wants to go back to the Yankees and is willing to play OF there.

Sori had been in the league long enough to get a "No-Trade" clause in his contract, he won 10 million dollars at arb AND that's with him being the worst defensive 2B in the league (granted his offensive numbers are the best at the position).

I wasn't sure what to make of this whole situation. After thinking about it for awhile I'm of the opinion that he should just be happy he's getting paid to play baseball. You play the position the coach/manager tells you to. It doesn't matter if you could put up HoF numbers at 2nd base if you stay there. If you're not the best 2nd baseman on the team be happy you're not on the bench.

I can't blame the guy for not wanting to do something he wasn't planning on doing an no one asked him first.

If I went to work tomorrow and they said, you now have to clean toilets, I would do it because I don't have any way to not be working but I would certainly find another job ASAP.

Soriano is under contract so he can't really do that.

I was really hoping he'd keep not playing but if he missed time due to suspension he'd not come up for free agency and he probably took the field knowing it was best for his future.

And to back up what Ari post about the numbers in Texas.. Soriano is a pull hitter who had to hit homeruns to the deepest left field power alley in any stadium at 399 feet when he was with the Yankees. The home runs went down.. I'm guessing because he didn't get to face the Rangers pitching and had to face the Yankees ;)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sebboe
If I went to work tomorrow and they said, you now have to clean toilets, I would do it because I don't have any way to not be working but I would certainly find another job ASAP.

Dude, we're not talking about demoting Soriano to bat boy. Is he rightfully disapointed about the move? Sure. He made the right decision though. If he had sat out he'd have been acting like yet another spoiled athelete.

Quote:

Originally posted by Gadiantor
Dude, we're not talking about demoting Soriano to bat boy. Is he rightfully disapointed about the move? Sure. He made the right decision though. If he had sat out he'd have been acting like yet another spoiled athelete.

Obviously I was exaggerating.

To put it in a realistic sense.. right now I support a certain set of storage products at my job. If i came in one day and they said, ok, from now on you support the tape drives and the backup software instead of volume management software and the arrays that would be a lateral move but I would still quit because I hate those products and that's not what I agreed to do when I came here.

I also think he should have stuck his to his guns. He's a 2nd basemen.... If his defense is not stellar (I'm not sure if he's the WORST or whatever) then fine. Is it any better to have a bad defender in LF!? he muffs a play there and you're really fucked, that could mean a run or two in many many situations.

With the trend of playing small ball on the rise (White Sox?) it was a very shitty idea to move a supposedly below avg fielder to the OF...

There are FAR better hitting OF's out there, there are FEW 2nd basemen as potent at the plate. WTF?

As to the normal job metaphors... I think its more appropriate to say this would be like telling a brain surgeon he's not doing what he spent several years perfecting, he's going to be doing some other duties. Still leaving him a doctor, but doing something outside his expertise and, in a sense, beneath him.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sebboe
To put it in a realistic sense.. right now I support a certain set of storage products at my job. If i came in one day and they said, ok, from now on you support the tape drives and the backup software instead of volume management software and the arrays that would be a lateral move but I would still quit because I hate those products and that's not what I agreed to do when I came here.

I'm sure the market place for your skills is a bit broader than for a second baseman. What is he going to do if he doesn't move to left field? Where else is he going to play? He can either get millions to play left field or...what, become an analyst for ESPN?

I'm bored at work, so here are some comparisons of Soriano and Vidro (the Nats starting guy at second):

Fielding:

Code:

Soriano TEAM POS GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR 1999 NYY SS 1 1 8 2 0 1 1 1 .500 1.13 .500 2000 NYY 2B 1 0 3 1 0 0 1 0 .000 .00 .000 2000 NYY 3B 10 8 65 26 11 11 4 2 .846 3.05 .609 2000 NYY SS 9 4 46 16 7 7 2 1 .875 2.76 .600 2001 NYY 2B 156 156 1384 704 319 366 19 93 .973 4.45 .796 2002 NYY 2B 155 154 1388 725 300 402 23 86 .968 4.55 .813 2003 NYY 2B 155 154 1376 756 292 445 19 88 .975 4.82 .811 2004 Tex 2B 142 142 1248 749 308 418 23 104 .969 5.24 .799 2005 Tex 2B 153 153 1351 753 284 448 21 101 .972 4.88 .810 CAREER POS GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR Total 2B 762 759 6750.1 3688 1503 2079 106 472 .971 4.78 .806 Total 3B 10 8 65.0 26 11 11 4 2 .846 3.05 .609 Total SS 10 5 54.2 18 7 8 3 2 .833 2.52 .588 Vidro TEAM POS GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR 1997 Mon 2B 5 3 30 16 5 10 1 1 .938 4.50 .818 1997 Mon 3B 36 31 255 72 20 49 3 6 .958 2.43 .722 1998 Mon 2B 56 46 405 204 78 121 5 25 .975 4.43 .767 1998 Mon 3B 7 3 33 10 4 5 1 2 .900 2.48 .556 1999 Mon 1B 14 7 67 66 59 5 2 7 .970 8.55 .765 1999 Mon 2B 121 115 952 510 208 293 9 62 .982 4.74 .798 1999 Mon 3B 2 0 3 1 1 0 0 0 1.000 3.00 .000 1999 Mon LF 3 0 6 2 2 0 0 0 1.000 3.00 1.000 2000 Mon 2B 153 153 1301 712 260 442 10 102 .986 4.86 .815 2001 Mon 2B 121 121 1035 528 205 314 9 63 .983 4.51 .785 2002 Mon 2B 152 151 1323 773 314 448 11 93 .986 5.18 .807 2003 Mon 2B 137 137 1158 605 199 396 10 76 .983 4.62 .803 2004 Mon 2B 105 104 879 452 176 270 6 71 .987 4.57 .776 2005 Was 2B 79 79 665 331 134 192 5 39 .985 4.41 .793 CAREER POS GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR Total 1B 14 7 67.1 66 59 5 2 7 .970 8.55 .765 Total 2B 929 909 7748.1 4131 1579 2486 66 532 .984 4.72 .798 Total 3B 45 34 291.0 83 25 54 4 8 .952 2.44 .704 Total LF 3 0 6.0 2 2 0 0 0 1.000 3.00 1.000

Here's how they compare in offense:

Code:

Soriano TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS 1999 NYY 9 8 2 1 0 0 1 1 0 3 0 1 .125 .125 .500 .625 2000 NYY 22 50 5 9 3 0 2 3 1 15 2 0 .180 .196 .360 .556 2001 NYY 158 574 77 154 34 3 18 73 29 125 43 14 .268 .304 .432 .736 2002 NYY 156 696 128 209 51 2 39 102 23 157 41 13 .300 .332 .547 .879 2003 NYY 156 682 114 198 36 5 38 91 38 130 35 8 .290 .338 .525 .863 2004 Tex 145 608 77 170 32 4 28 91 33 121 18 5 .280 .324 .484 .808 2005 Tex 156 637 102 171 43 2 36 104 33 125 30 2 .268 .309 .512 .821 Total -- 802 3255 505 912 199 16 162 465 157 676 169 43 .280 .320 .500 .820 Vidro TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS 1997 Mon 67 169 19 42 12 1 2 17 11 20 1 0 .249 .297 .367 .664 1998 Mon 83 205 24 45 12 0 0 18 27 33 2 2 .220 .318 .278 .596 1999 Mon 140 494 67 150 45 2 12 59 29 51 0 4 .304 .346 .476 .822 2000 Mon 153 606 101 200 51 2 24 97 49 69 5 4 .330 .379 .540 .919 2001 Mon 124 486 82 155 34 1 15 59 31 49 4 1 .319 .371 .486 .857 2002 Mon 152 604 103 190 43 3 19 96 60 70 2 1 .315 .378 .490 .868 2003 Mon 144 509 77 158 36 0 15 65 69 50 3 2 .310 .397 .470 .867 2004 Mon 110 412 51 121 24 0 14 60 49 43 3 1 .294 .367 .454 .821 2005 Was 87 309 38 85 21 2 7 32 31 30 0 0 .275 .339 .424 .763 Total -- 1060 3794 562 1146 278 11 108 503 356 415 20 15 .302 .364 .467 .831

I'd start Vidro at second. He is a better second baseman, and a better hitter. Soriano can steal bases and hit HRs, but he's getting to the plate anyway, just from a different position. The Nats made the right call not putting Soriano at 2nd. I'm not sure I would have picked him up in a trade though. It's an odd move if you're planning on putting him in the outfield. Vidro is starting to slow down at the plate looking at the stats, so maybe Soriano was picked up to take over the position next season.

Quote:

Originally posted by Gillan

Sori had been in the league long enough to get a "No-Trade" clause in his contract, he won 10 million dollars at arb AND that's with him being the worst defensive 2B in the league (granted his offensive numbers are the best at the position).

What do you mean been in the league long enough to get a no-trade clause? It isn't really a matter of how long you are in the league. You have to be a super star for any team to agree to one. They are pretty uncommon.

He has only been in the bigs for 7 years, so he probably only negotiated 1 contract in that whole time. From what I have read, that contract was done via arbitration.

If any old player could get them after 3-4 years of play, there would barely be any trading going on in baseball because every pro would have a no-trade clause and refuse to go to a shittier team in a market they didn't like.

I see what you're saying, but my point was that he had the opportunity to negotiate a new contract before it went to arbitration. The Rangers were trying to go out of their way this year to get Soriano back, but not at the ridiculous 10million figure.

He's a good player to be sure, but it's pretty common in baseball that if you dont have the defensive ability to play IF but can hit and catch you can be shipped out to the OF and make the transition - there is good precedent for this.

Additionally other players, of even higher caliber, have moved to a new position because the team they were going to had a player already entrenched there.

Oh and one last thing - the Nationals werent allowed to talk to Soriano about the trade, Rangers wouldn't allow it. Everyone assumed that even though Sori wanted to play 2B that he was willing to go into the Of ---- after all baseball people have been suggesting the move for years.

I think the Nationals just took a dumb risk and it blew up.

Quote:

Originally posted by Gillan

I think the Nationals just took a dumb risk and it blew up.

That's how I see it too - especially if their whole plan was just to trade for him to use him as trade fodder. That's totally betting on the come.