Thanks for taking the time to post, Darion. I know you don't have much of it!
It's really interesting to hear about it from someone who is actually there and seeing it all live.
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Thanks for taking the time to post, Darion. I know you don't have much of it!
It's really interesting to hear about it from someone who is actually there and seeing it all live.
I'm still waiting for this administration to take some public accountability and responsibility for the war in Iraq.Quote:
At the end of the day, I doubt that you will change your mind over anything or concede a single point that would make the actions of the United States government look like anything but a pack of slathering warmongers desperate to take the eyes of the public off George W's slipping popularity, or whatever this month's coverup reason for the Iraqi conflict is.
America, under this current administration shows clearly that it is the 'state of exception’ with constant wars as one of its main tools.
As far as sacrifice, the truth is we will never know the real human cost of these wars on both sides. We will never know what kind of contribution these many Iraqis, Afghans, Americans, and others would have made to their respective societies had they lived. And for that, we mourn the dead equally, and the horrible loss and waste from this bullshit war of aggression.
The men and women we remember on Memorial Day gave their lives, in part, so that humanity around the world could pursue what Roosevelt called the four freedoms: freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom from want, freedom from fear.
The Bush Administration represents none of these things. Fear won Bush the election. Those against the war were labelled as un patriotic and un American. You have christian leaders in your country with messages in front of their churches stating that the Koran 'should' be flushed down the toilet. And you have military leaders stating publically that the war in the middle east is a battle of good versus evil. Gimme a fucking break!!
I don't hate America. I just hate those who drape themselves in your flag, and claim to represent American virtues and values, all the while undermining them.
So you equally hate rabid Muslims that have declared Jihad on the west, I assume?Quote:
You have christian leaders in your country with messages in front of their churches stating that the Koran 'should' be flushed down the toilet. And you have military leaders stating publically that the war in the middle east is a battle of good versus evil. Gimme a fucking break!! I don't hate America. I just hate those who drape themselves in your flag, and claim to represent American virtues and values, all the while undermining them.
Do you also hate the people who march around burning the American flag as the ultimate sign of disrespect for a country? Do you hate the people who defecate on the American flag as a form of hate speech?Quote:
Originally posted by kestra
I'm still waiting for this administration to take some public accountability and responsibility for the war in Iraq.
America, under this current administration shows clearly that it is the 'state of exception’ with constant wars as one of its main tools.
....
I don't hate America. I just hate those who drape themselves in your flag, and claim to represent American virtues and values, all the while undermining them.
What exactly do you mean by you want this administration to "take some public accountability and responsibility" for the war? They've officially declared war. They have stated exactly why they've attacked and who they're attacking. They're still there instead of pulling out because a few groups have made the war unpopular. The troops are still there risking their lives. Exactly what do you mean by "accoutability and responsibility"? Those are easy words to throw around, much like "This movie sucks because it's got bad editting."
Can't say that I support these types of actions.Quote:
Do you also hate the people who march around burning the American flag as the ultimate sign of disrespect for a country? Do you hate the people who defecate on the American flag as a form of hate speech?
I'm speaking about US politicians, media pundits, and influential people who claim to represent the virtues and values of America, yet their actions demonstrate otherwise.Quote:
I don't hate America. I just hate those who drape themselves in your flag, and claim to represent American virtues and values, all the while undermining them.
No WMD were found in Iraq and this administration acts like they're in shock!! No WMD??? I'm as shocked as you are!! Even the Downing Street Memos have had nearly zero media coverage; which when you consider how the media is owned, is not surprising. It's pretty damn clear that if any of the last 3 year's events were under Clinton's watch, the Republicans would be demanding blood. Don't bother calling me a Clinton supporter, as it won't work. A blowjob is worth impeachment, but false reasons for war is little more than a national shrugging of the shoulders.
I want them to come clear with the facts that their reasons for attacking Iraq were false. The war is unpopular because America never should have invaded, and it's taken all this time for enough Americans to realize this.Quote:
What exactly do you mean by you want this administration to "take some public accountability and responsibility" for the war? They've officially declared war. They have stated exactly why they've attacked and who they're attacking. They're still there instead of pulling out because a few groups have made the war unpopular. The troops are still there risking their lives. Exactly what do you mean by "accoutability and responsibility"? Those are easy words to throw around, much like "This movie sucks because it's got bad editting."
I don't deny troops are risking their lives, and it's sucks they're asked to die for reasons given. They're there now, and have to make the best of it, which really sucks.
Newsweek is chastised for their false story, and forced to tell the truth and come clean. For some reason nobody expects the Bush Administration to uphold these ideals. Their false 'stories' have cost the lives of thousands. This will never be okay in my book.
I disagree with you. War isn't ever single action. The world invaded for more reasons than just WMD, and they've been clear about that. They stay for more reasons than WMD, and they've been clear about that. It's simply that some people have latched onto the lack of WMD as a reason NOT to be there and don't care if there are other reasons to be there.Quote:
Originally posted by kestra
Newsweek is chastised for their false story, and forced to tell the truth and come clean. For some reason nobody expects the Bush Administration to uphold these ideals. Their false 'stories' have cost the lives of thousands. This will never be okay in my book.
Inaccurate intelligence is not a "story", and it's never definite. Clinton believed there were WMD in Iraq as did many people who are from the left. This is simply because all intelligence reports said that there was a high likelihood that Iraq has WMD. That's bad intelligence, not bad journalism. It's a lot easier to verify facts in journalism than when you're dealing with international intelligence.
No Dalaena, that's not right!! Dick Cheney left absolutely zero room for doubt in the public's mind that Iraq had WMD. In late 2002, he said ""Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is NO DOUBT that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us.”Quote:
Inaccurate intelligence is not a "story", and it's never definite. Clinton believed there were WMD in Iraq as did many people who are from the left. This is simply because all intelligence reports said that there was a high likelihood that Iraq has WMD.
This is from the White House's own website. Even David Kay said a year after Cheney's statement that Iraq had no weapons program after 1991.
Bush didn't think UN, IAEA and UNMOVIC inspectors did a good enough search when they conducted more than 900 inspections at more than 500 sites.
The inspectors did not find that Iraq possessed chemical or biological weapons or that it had reconstituted its nuclear weapons program.
He knew all to well they wouldn't find anything.
Whether getting the facts straight in journalism, intelligence or otherwise, but especially in intelligence.....you better be damn sure your reasons and proof (and they said their proof was rock solid) are iron clad if you're going to ask your troops to go and die. I really don't see how this is so much to ask.
Kestra, give it up, seriously.
Being wrong is not the same thing as lying.
If you cannot understand the difference, then there is truly no point in having a discussion with you, ever.
There was plenty of intelligence to support the reasonable surety that people had about WMDs.
Furthermore, some WMDs were found (anthrax and ricin), just not in significant quantities.
Additionally, if Turkey hadn't screwed us, we would have had Iraq surrounded from the beginning. Since we didn't, we may never know how much WMD got smuggled out.
But most importantly, being wrong and lying are two completely different things. Please learn the difference.
Finally, if you think WMDs were the only reason for the Iraq War you don't keep up with current events or history since 1991.
Even if I believed for a moment that the Bush Administration were wrong, and not lying, they've got ALOT of apologizing to do. And I'm still waiting for that.Quote:
But most importantly, being wrong and lying are two completely different things.
The main reason for invading Iraq was the threat the administration CLEARLY AND OFTEN stated it posed to the nation. One government official was quoted as saying WMD was the reason for invading that they all could agree on.
It was after the invasion and several months afterwards no WMD were found that Bush Co. started revising their reasons for the war.
This isn't an administration who 'just got it wrong'. This war is not only extracting a huge toll on lives, but a huge environmental toll as well.
I hope to God that our government is smart enough not to do something as titanically stupid and weak as apologize.Quote:
Originally posted by kestra
Even if I believed for a moment that the Bush Administration were wrong, and not lying, they've got ALOT of apologizing to do. And I'm still waiting for that.
Have you done much study of Muslim/Arab culture? If we show weakness to them, we are done. Period. They respect only one thing: Strength. That is our only hope to even begin to protect ourselves from radical Islam. Our current projection of strength is probably a huge reason why we have somehow, miraculously, not suffered another attack since 9/11. It sure as heck isn't because our borders and ports are strongly or competently defended.
Do you know why Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait? Because he thought we were weak and wouldn't do anything about it.
When these radical Arab/Muslim nations or groups perceive us as weak, we die.
Furthermore, you seem to really not understand that the majority of Americans are still fine with the invasion with or without WMDs. For me, getting rid of Saddam Hussein was a far more compelling reason to invade than WMDs. It always was.
I understand that you hate the war and everything about it. That's fine. But it is unwise for you to act like your view is the view that everybody holds. You can be mad at the government or George Bush or whoever as much as you want, but if you were honest with yourself you'd know that you are simply mad at everyone who thinks differently about this issue than you do.
Furthermore, it is insulting to act like everyone who supports the war only does so because they were bamboozled by lies or because they follow George Bush blindly. Perhaps I should mention again that after three opportunities to do so (once I was old enough), I have never voted for a George Bush- Sr or Jr.
On the lying issue, I really just cannot understand why anyone, no matter how much they hate George Bush, would completely destroy their own credibility by insisting the government lied about WMD.
Why would Bush, et. al., do something that they KNEW would make them look so bad? They could have easily sold the war on the basis of how evil Saddam Hussein was, and the fact that he had repeatedly violated the 1991 Gulf War cease fire treaty. They didn't need the WMD reason. In fact, using the WMD reason delayed things enormously because it meant they had to wait for the UN to do their whole bureaucratic inspection stuff.
George Bush would be in a much stronger position today if he had never used WMDs as a reason for the invasion. The inability to find large quantities of WMD has been a huge embrassment. Not even politicians lie when they know with absolute certaintly the lie will be totally and widely exposed causing them embarassment and a loss of political power.
Furthermore, if it was a lie, then why was everyone in on it- including George Bush's political opponents? Bill Clinton, John Kerry, and leaders from virtually every western nation thought Saddam Hussein had stockpiles of WMDs. In fact, even Saddam Hussein thought he had them!!!!! His own scientists were lying to him about how successful their WMD programs were. That's one of the reasons Saddam stonewalled the inspectors so badly- he thought there were stockpiles of chemical and nuclear materials all over the place. If George Bush was lying, then the entire world was in on the lie, including Saddam Hussein. That just doesn't make sense.
There is nothing wrong with hating the war and/or hating war in general. I can totally respect the opinion that the reasons were not grave enough to invade Iraq. I disagree with that opinion, but I can totally respect and understand it.
But saying George Bush lied about the WMDs is just silly, crazy talk. It makes absolutely no sense. Whenever someone makes such a ridiculous, illogical, and irrational claim, I know they are blinded by hatred of George Bush and have absolutely no interest in discussing the real issues at all.