Historic Iraqi Election

THe only thing that web site showed me is that human nature is the same all over. IslamOnline seems to be an anti-American Muslim-themed site... according to what I've read on it. This is no different from a liberal site that still trashes Bush despite any good that may come under his administration. I have a challenge... I'm sure there are Muslim Threshers. I would like to see a Muslim web site with an opposing view. I'm sure that not all Muslim hate us. In fact, I know this because I know some Muslims.

Some of the posts on that site were totally disgusting. Posts with the feel of "you don't know what's going on over there. You don't see the brutality the coalition is imposing..." Holy fucking shit... are they posting from Iraq? Do THEY know? As most of you know, I am a soldier, and I have buddies who WERE there! They tell me all the stories of how Iraqi people, as a whole, love us. There's some who only want our money and will do what it takes to swindle it out of us. A slew of them are desperate for a way to survive. It sucks over there. I am not looking forward to going. But they know the old system wasn't working. They voted. What happens next is in their hands. I hope everything goes well for Iraq. And frankly, whoever they have in office, if that's who they want and he treats them right, that's all we can ask for. Let's face it. My primary concern is selfish in nature: I don't want to go to Iraq. I don't want to be shot at.

The question was posed: is it worth the cost? Was it worth the cost when colonial farmers were brutally slaughtered by more experienced professional soldiers from the foremost military in the world? With that, I refer to the American Revolution. Many died... was it worth the cost? In that time, I dare accuse that some of these naysayers would have been loyalists on the side of King George. The difference? Timing. We aren't fighting for our own freedom, but Iraq's. Also, there is a tempered sense of tolerance. Disagreeing is not only okay, but fashionable these days. I wouldn't call such people traitors, per se, but there is a point where some people's idea of free speech only hurts the effort.

Amazingly enough, some people still think we actually WANT to be there.

Quote:

---

Amazingly enough, some people still think we actually WANT to be there.

---

I'll agree with you there Lebeau, I doubt many soldiers want to be there. The Bush Administration on the other hand, does.

Quote:

---

Disagreeing is not only okay, but fashionable these days. I wouldn't call such people traitors, per se, but there is a point where some people's idea of free speech only hurts the effort.

---

This is the price of freedom, isn't this why the invasion took place?(or was it a growing and mounting threat.....I always get confused)

As an aside, I have a clip of Rumsfeld saying the biggest mistake in Iraq was not finding WMD, if anyone wants to see it.

If the Bush Administration and the coalition truly, really want democracy and freedom in Iraq, then they must be willing to accept the following possible outcome of the elections:

I ask it again:

Will the United States really defend freedom and democratic rule in Iraq if it results in a government that pursues policies seen to be contrary to American strategic and economic interests?

I'm sorry, but I will never, ever, ever believe that the US led coalition went into Iraq with the altruistic reasons Bush is now touting after the recent elections.
The US has created a series of structures to assure itself a tight grip over the country’s economic and political life—and above all its huge oil reserves—no matter what the outcome of the vote or the decisions of the national assembly that emerges from it. It is not about to relinquish this control.

Lebeau, you're about as close as it comes to me knowing somebody who's going over. Are you going for sure?

Everyone on Threshold will be praying that you stay alive, and come home still in one piece, mentally and physically.

Please believe that I've never had anything against the soldiers themselves. My beef has always been with the politicians who make the decisions; especially those who can't admit it when mistakes have been made.

I don't type these thoughts lightly, nor do I type them to merely rock the boat.
This is what I believe deep down, as strongly as anyone who has the opposite opinion.

This is my last post on this topic.

Like I said. It didn look good. However Islamonline is not a site that is anti-american. They are anti-violence. The forums however hold views of others who may be anti-american. And the fact is, in South-east Asia as a whole, most Muslims are anti-american. In Singapore however we are more Moderate and though reluctant to support our country (we were named as a coalition member) when the Iraq war began (i was totally against it at first) I saw that this might save the Middle East. I lived in a democratic Singapore all my life and sort of took it forgranted. I just thought of greedy Americans wanting oil and nothing else, how they wanted to impose their way of life forcefully into the Iraqis, who I saw as an opressed people, first by Saddam then by the Americans. Only after some time I realised, if Iraq could be a democratic country, a strong democratic country in the near future, it would be a small step in achieving better path for the Middle East.

Though i was blind to admit it at first, the majority of Muslims do still oppose the war. The poll that i quoted was done in only Singapore, which is a very very very small percentage of Muslims and even then not all support the war. Why the unsupporting behaviour? They do not trust the Prime Minister in power at the moment. He used to be a CIA agent and Muslims fear he will become a puppet to the USA and that the elected government will be a puppet government to the USA.

But what they must realise is, eventhough the government might be a puppet government now, the number that went out to vote (estimated 60%) shows that indeed the people are getting more politically aware. And that in the next election that a 'non-puppet government' can be chosen to lead the people forward. Muslims who lived under a democratic nation knows the process and come to accept that this is the only way forward.

Like how my country fought with non-violence against British rule to gain independence, Iraq will fight for theirs.

On sucide attacks and other terrorist bombings, that cannot be avoided as Iraq's population still has its dissidents and those strayed from the right path who still want the way of old. This is mostly from the Sunni sect. And they do this due to the removal of all special treatements given to them during Saddam's rule.

I am a Sunni myself and we are against all forms of violence against our own. Islam cries out non-violence and yet they think what they do is righteous. They believe the lies that their wayward clerics tell them. A rule on human life is simple in Islam and in many other religions, killing is not permitted. To have even an execution all laws of justice in that country must first be followed.

And in all wars no matter how good the cause there will always be opposition.

(Study Islamonline a bit and get to know more on Islam and what it is about. I can say that it is not an anti-american site.)

www.freemuslims.org

Lebeau, there is still hope. :)

Kestra, it is really sad that you cannot even stay on topic.

It doesn't matter to you that something truly great and amazing happened (look at the topic again).

All you can do is bitterly twist the discussion to something else so you can let the negativity flow.

Your hated for specific political parties and specific politicians is so obvious that numerous people have called you out on it.

This is not a thread about WMDs.

Please, if you can't stay on topic, either start your own topic or don't post.

I am still pessimistic. I agree it is a huge step, however the situation in Iraq is so fucked up that possibilities that something might go wrong is numerous. There are three or four major forces that would like to influence the elections or the future government. One is Iran trying to build a shiite government, the other is the arab countries trying to prevent that and bring up a sunni one, next is US planning to keep the situation under control (for money/israel/oil/control/ or preventing another Iran in the region) and probably the last is the terrorist groups.

So I say this is a great step which brings HOPE but to me it is simply to early to cheer for democracy in Iraq. I say we have to wait at least a couple of years until the whole situation is stable.

I totally disagree. It's never too early to cheer for democracy. Each small step forward is worth celebrating. I totally support Iraq voting in who they want. As an American, a Republican and a registered voter who voted for Bush, even I am suspicious of my government's motivations. I can't confirm nor deny selfish reasons for the war. I have even heard about bases being built in Iraq the very same way they were built in Germany and Korea.

The question you posed, Kestra, about America continuing to support Iraq's government even if they elect one contrary to our own views and interests is one that has already been answered by history. The Taliban, Ho Chi Minh, and (I believe) even Saddam Hussein were supported by America and put into power only to have them turn against us. From what I read on those boards Jarkis pointed us to (again... just the boards) many people are infuriated that we helped bring democracy and freedom of choice to Iraq and have declared their intent to destroy it and us. Is that not a good enough reason to protect ourselves? The militants have already attacked us on our own soil. They will do it again if given the chance. The Iraqi people have had it far worse than any of us can ever know, and they have spoken that they are tired of it. They want a government of their own that they can trust not to slaughter them for having an opinion. If it's Sunni, Shiite, whatever, it doesn't matter. What matters is how the people are treated and that it doesn't bite us on the ass... that the very same people we saved bomb us again on our own soil. As long as those requirements are met, I'm happy with whatever government Iraq chooses.

So, does it really matter WHY we went in? The bottom line is Iraq is free. Something they haven't been in years. I don't know if the US has a selfish hand in it all, but I do know that freeing Iraq will make them more willing to trade with us. Also, as far as American troops being in Iraq, is that really so bad for Iraq? They get our money, which we are more than happy to part with. They get additional security should they need it. The last thing they need is for us to leave now while they are still a fledgling democracy susceptible to conquer by any sufficiently motivated dictator.

And yes, I am going for sure. After 2 near deployment scares, it's confirmed this time. When, I don't know yet, but it's coming. And Jarkis, I'll definitely check out that site. I knew Islam as a whole was anti-violence. My mother has studied the Qu'ran and told me some of the principles taught in it. It's just so sickening to see the militant sects getting so much attention as if they represented Islam. I think Muslims need to speak up and let it be known that these real-life Klingons do NOT represent all of Islam. But when Al-Jazeera and terrorists frequent the news, what are we, the non-Muslims, supposed to think? Cheers to Iraq, once again, for stepping up against their warlike brethren and letting the world know what real Muslims think.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Lebeau
And yes, I am going for sure. After 2 near deployment scares, it's confirmed this time.

---

Well if you do go. Take care of yourself and come home safely.

And remember democracy doesn come overnight. So I doubt any of us are waiting for signs of a strong democratic Iraq will take a lot of time. A truly free Iraq, even more time. And soon the people will realise that true freedom is within reach and they will grasp the oppurtunity.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by ejda
I am still pessimistic. I agree it is a huge step, however the situation in Iraq is so fucked up that possibilities that something might go wrong is numerous. There are three or four major forces that would like to influence the elections or the future government. One is Iran trying to build a shiite government, the other is the arab countries trying to prevent that and bring up a sunni one, next is US planning to keep the situation under control (for money/israel/oil/control/ or preventing another Iran in the region) and probably the last is the terrorist groups.

So I say this is a great step which brings HOPE but to me it is simply to early to cheer for democracy in Iraq. I say we have to wait at least a couple of years until the whole situation is stable.

---

Any type of government that takes place in Iraq will have to be approved by the people. You have to know that greater than 60% of the Iraqi people are Shiite muslims, so what's so bad about having a shiite based government? The parliamentary elections that took place have so far have shown that the Ayatollah Sistani backed Shia coalition with a huge majority.

Now this does not mean that the end result will be a religious theocracy. However if the Iraqi people wish to have a religious theocracy, then they will vote for such. It is up to them what type of government they want to have in place.

Oh yeah, religion and democracy can coexist. You can take a look at the current ruling party in Turkey as an example. It might be worrisome that the cleric Sistani has such immense influence on the Iraqi political process, but I doubt a new Iran will the be the end result. There's no reason to be pessimistic about it.

It's a start. I just have to wonder how much stomach the American people has for several decades of Iraq occupation to maintain this "democracy".