http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129908,00.html
I guess I had not realized breast-feeding in public had become such an uproar.
Whenever I see it in public, I usually just avert my eyes. Awkard at first, but I'm never offended.
Thoughts, opinions?
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129908,00.html
I guess I had not realized breast-feeding in public had become such an uproar.
Whenever I see it in public, I usually just avert my eyes. Awkard at first, but I'm never offended.
Thoughts, opinions?
I'll never be a mother, but I'm thinking if a baby is crying and fussing, sometimes breast feeding is the only solution. From what I have seen, most mothers do make an effort to cover their breast up.
As a passer by, for me, it 's not an issue.
If you have a problem with it, just produce a camera and ask the woman if they mind if you take a picture, and they'll soon cover up.
Well I am a mother and I don't like it. I think you can find a place to do it in private. There is no need to be pulling out your breast in public. It makes some people very uncomfortable and feeling very awkward. I think it's common curtsey to find a place to do it in private. If anything ask if it bothers anyone if you do it.
There was a girl at work that would take her breast pump into the ladies room and start pumping. She wouldn't go into a stall or anything and for someone to walk in and see that it's a bit awkward. Mother or not.
The worse part was she would take her breast pump out to the kitchenette area and clean it in the sink there. Why she didn't do it in the bathroom is beyond me but I know alot of men were kinda grossed out that she was cleaning her breast pump in the kitchenette area and placing it on the counters where they all cook their food and make their coffee.
There was another time where I was at a party and this girl just pulls out her boob and starts feeding her child. Alot of people were kind of offended. She could have easily asked if she could go to another room with privacy to do that.
Obviously it bothers me. I don't want to see some girl's boob but that's my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree.
I noticed a link after reading the article that kinda made me chuckle. Just the name of it really... www.weanthatkid.com heh:P
Well I breastfed both of my dauthers. I was a discreet one though and would do it in private or cover them up with a blankie while I did it. It can be just as uncomfortable for the mother too! However, there might be situations where it is unavoidable. When you have a hysterical screaming baby and their only form of sustanence is your breast milk, sometimes you just don't think. After months of doing it every two hours or more, you become numb to the whole situation. (nipples and mind ::giggles:: ) Sometimes you might not even think about it cause it is just an automatic thing that you are constantly doing. Of course, I did, cause I was self-concious about it, but there are those who are more open minded.. I suppose. Plus you get all of this literature from your doctor and that LaLeche ( I know I spelled that wrong) Society that advocates for breastfeeding. Sometimes you don't know what to think! Ok that is my 2 cents worth for now
I can understand that and maybe it's just me. I've never been comfortable with the whole situation. I've never breastfed because I wasn't comfortable with it. So to me it didn't make sense because things would just be too tense for me and my ex didn't care for it either so that made it worse.
But they do make breast pumps. Can't people just bottle it if they know they're going out in public? The whole idea behind it is that it's healthier right? I mean I can understand if a child won't take to it but I don't know.... just never been comfortable with it and I think where it may be unfair to a nursing mother it's also unfair to others that don't want to be around it. *shrugs helplessly*
Whenever I see something like this going on in public I just think "Hey, she's being a mother" and just keep on walking.
In this day and age, just about everything you do will offend someone or another. People should learn to just keep on walking, or just to avert their eyes.
Get a life and stop bitching about other's.
:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clapQuote:
Whenever I see something like this going on in public I just think "Hey, she's being a mother" and just keep on walking.
In this day and age, just about everything you do will offend someone or another. People should learn to just keep on walking, or just to avert their eyes.
Get a life and stop bitching about other's.
Metiao
Thank you. I think this is what a good deal of this country needs to do. This incessant bitching has become common place in our culture. Have Americans just become to comfortable and feel the need to stir shit up? You can see this same trend in frivolous lawsuits. Jesus H. Christ... Only in America can you become rich for being a dumbass i.e. putting HOT coffee between your legs, eating too much FAST FOOD.
Sorry to take this off on a tangent. But kudos for mothers who worry about baby first, and stupid easily offended people second.
J/R
I dunno... I have no control over other people. If they become offended by me, I figure that's THEIR problem, unless I am intentionally being offensive.
I really have a problem with the belief that everyone has to go out of their way to avoid offending people. There comes a point when sensitivity, political correctness, social conformity and the like becomes suffocating, and I think, unfortunately, we reached that point in the U.S. long ago.
And, I suppose my reaction to this issue is consistent. If it bothers you, don't look.
It's not even about baby first. It's easy enough to go somewhere private.
What does a mother do that doesn't breast feed and runs out of formula? The baby screams then too until there is food. So taking time to get somewhere private shouldn't be a big deal.
Well I suppose this just goes to show that different things affect people differently. Personally, I'd prefer to be stuck in public transport for an hour with a breastfeeding mother sitting 2 feet from me, than a screaming child.Quote:
Originally posted by Isaviel
What does a mother do that doesn't breast feed and runs out of formula? The baby screams then too until there is food. So taking time to get somewhere private shouldn't be a big deal.
Sorry, Isaviel, but the law is on the nursing mother's side in this in America. See http://www.lalecheleague.org/LawBills.html for details by state.
The mother should be mostly covered in any case. Even if she doesn't have a special nursing top, she can wear a big T-shirt and just lift up enough to get baby to breast. But why should she be banished to some back closet or bathroom? Heck, more women's breasts get exposed every Spring Break or Mardi Gras parade.
And you just can't pump as much milk as a baby can nurse. It's a second best solution.
PS: Yes, Ismenia, it's La Leche League.
You speek the gospel of truth. Preach on Brother Graeblyn!Quote:
Originally posted by Graeblyn
I really have a problem with the belief that everyone has to go out of their way to avoid offending people. There comes a point when sensitivity, political correctness, social conformity and the like becomes suffocating, and I think, unfortunately, we reached that point in the U.S. long ago.
But, honestly, my question is: What comes next?
Personally, I'd rather live in a world where I have to ignore and deal with what -I- beleive to be obscene, then to live in a world where I have to live my life according to what everybody ELSE beleives to be obscene.
Both our kids were exclusively breastfed for the first 6 months.
With the first, my wife was awkward and shy about making sure she was covered up with a blanket, and not showing any boob. That lasted for about 2 weeks, then she said, fuck this, and just started feeding the baby when it was feeding time.
She is very discreet and you can't see anything unless you make a real effort to look, in which case, have fun, if nursing mothers' breasts do it for you, get your kicks how you can.
The one thing she says that I think is hilarious - she is more worried that people will see her 'fat rolls' than her boobs. That is her big concern now.
Of course, we're not Americans, so maybe poeple here are just a little more tolerant.
*jabs all the Yanks as they walk past with looks of horror at his child getting fed
EDIT PS
Anyone who gets 'grossed out' by breast milk has some serious issues to overcome. That is what breasts are designed for, believe it or not, to make milk, the whole toy during sex thing is a happy afterthought.
It's okay Elidia. I'm just stating how I feel about it. I never expected anyone to agree with me. It still doesn't change how I feel about it.Quote:
Originally posted by Elidia
Sorry, Isaviel, but the law is on the nursing mother's side in this in America. .
Yes they do make breast pumps which can work for some people sometimes. Some babies won't take to a bottle at all though and will only nurse. Then there is the issue that pumping can throw off your whole nursing schedule. I know for me, if I pumped for later and then the baby needed fed soon.. I had reduced milk. And then when you do feed the baby with the bottle and you don't nurse, you are engorged with milk which is really painful and embarrassing if you are leaking all over the place. (yes they make nursing pads, but they don't always do the trick. ) You could pump off the extra milk, but that is a pain especially if you are in public! I know this is probably TOO much information for some, but hey I just wanted to explain how it works.Quote:
Originally posted by Isaviel
But they do make breast pumps. Can't people just bottle it if they know they're going out in public? The whole idea behind it is that it's healthier right? I mean I can understand if a child won't take to it but I don't know.... just never been comfortable with it and I think where it may be unfair to a nursing mother it's also unfair to others that don't want to be around it. *shrugs helplessly*
I do understand it. I didn't breast feed and I'm well aware of the pain and the leaking and the embarassment of it.
My wife had real problems with a pump. She breast fed for the first month and it stopped the "leaking" sopping wet frontage, which made her nipples even more sore.
In response to this social stuff thats been banded around, well its society thats made breast feeding in public a taboo. As stated thats what there for, and baby gets the best of both worlds, comfort, better bonding and nice fresh baby milk.
To Quote Graeblyn :-
"I really have a problem with the belief that everyone has to go out of their way to avoid offending people. There comes a point when sensitivity, political correctness, social conformity and the like becomes suffocating, and I think, unfortunately, we reached that point in the U.S. long ago."
This is true, but a modicome of politness and self control is all that is needed. At one point i was walking out of peoples way, dodging around folk in crowds, people that just couldnt be bothered to be polite, and i thought why am i bothering, no one else is, there all barging one anouther. But i had to think on what it would be like if no one did bother about other people, not pretty at all. We have to strike a medium and use common sense, i call it self accountability, and as with all these stupid law suits, its sadly lacking nowadays.
I am 100% for breastfeeding in public in places that are appropriate. It really has nothing to do with putting the baby first for me. I just believe that breastfeeding is the most natural way to feed the baby, so people should not be made to feel uncomfortable about it.
Having said this, I do think that a person should always try to be accomodating of others if she can do something as easy as wear appropriate clothing or just use the baby blanket to cover up. Most people aren't bother by the THOUGHT of a baby breastfeeding. It's just the sight of a boob that makes a lot of people uncomfortable.
At the same time, I would be really upset if I was being discrete and was asked to move to a bathroom or something. Bathrooms aren't a comfortable place to breastfeed, and I would NEVER eat in a public bathroom. It's just too dirty. Thus, I wouldn't want my baby eating in one and me having to do all sorts of contortions to be able to feed in a tiny stall.
Well I've never had babies or breast fed but personally I would never whip my boobs out in public. I guess I'm just too private for that. I've seen mothers nursing a baby in public before and it didn't bother me...it just seems natural.
Then again there are a lot of "natural" things we don't do in public that I -would- be offended by if I had to witness, so I respect that others might be more sensitive and I think it is necessary to be discreet out of courtesy to others. That's part of living in civilized society with other people: showing consideration for others by respecting social taboos even if it infringes upon perceived/imagined personal freedoms or 'rights'. It's really not so bad and not even a sacrifice when you consider the tradeoff. So the attitude: "Fuck what other people think, I'm doin' things my way and damn them all if they're offended" isn't really acceptable to me.
Yes there are always cases that necessitate breaking social taboos, like Malacasta's public transportation example, and in those cases, people understand. The possibility of *gasp* !seeing boobies! is not as horrific as dealing with a squalling brat on the bus. Honestly if I was a mother in that situation and I did have a blanket or something to cover up with, I wouldn't hesitate at all to take care of it because the alternative is even more uncomfortable.
And as for the mother washing out her breast pump in a public food prep area...yes that thought is disgusting, for me too. I find it revolting because breast milk is a human body fluid. It's just as unsanitary as taking a cup full of spit or some other human fluid and dumping it out in a sink that other humans have to use and the fact that it was a food prep area makes it even more stomach-churning. Now maybe breast milk is germ free, I have no idea, but given what I've heard about the importance of mothers who breastfeed taking care of themselves for the sake of their baby's health, I doubt it. And even if it was perfectly sanitary, I think I'd still get grossed out by it, again just out of an ingrained fear of coming into contact with other peoples' body fluids.
That's my point. Of all the experiences I've had with it.Quote:
Originally posted by Dalaena
It's just the sight of a boob that makes a lot of people uncomfortable.
I'm not knocking people down of breast feeding. I know it's healthier and all that and that's great. It's just not something for me. As I stated I'm not comfortable with it and when you're not comfortable with it, it makes it much worse trying to do it be it for the mother or the baby.
I was once a member of LLL but I've still never understood their idea of staging breastfeeding sit-ins. All it does is make the news for one night (if that). It doesn't change anyone's mind.
I'm all for breastfeeding in public but finding a corner or a secluded bench or something. Most mothers I know (even the militant LLL ones) cover themselves up but sometimes the baby moves the cover away. Sometimes the baby commits the painful act of pulling his/her head away while still holding the nipple in his/her mouth. Even when a mother is covered, there is still a chance that her breast might be exposed. But usually the baby's head covers the nipple and aereola. You can see more boob just walking around the mall than what you'd see on a nursing mom.
If a woman is with a group of people, the polite thing is to ask if it's OK. I think it's sad that people are offended by an infant drinking milk from its source. The same people probably think it's cute to see a calf drinking from its mother or puppies nursing. But even though I think it's sad, there is still a place for manners.
In answer to the question of pumping milk, why would I want to lug a diaper bag heavy with bottles, especially when the bottles have to be chilled and then reheated? What am I supposed to do at the store? With breastfeeding, I had the stuff in convenient packaging at just the right temperature!
(And I've had children exclusively bottlefed, one exclusively breastfed and one that took both. Trust me, breastfeeding's the easiest.)
I've never had a problem with lugging bottles of milk around. It's what you do when you don't breast feed.Quote:
Originally posted by Marah
In answer to the question of pumping milk, why would I want to lug a diaper bag heavy with bottles, especially when the bottles have to be chilled and then reheated? What am I supposed to do at the store? With breastfeeding, I had the stuff in convenient packaging at just the right temperature!
(And I've had children exclusively bottlefed, one exclusively breastfed and one that took both. Trust me, breastfeeding's the easiest.)
Yes, I also have done this with my bottlefed babies. But why should I have to carry around a diaper bag full of bottles just because someone else can't deal with boob juice?Quote:
Originally posted by Isaviel
I've never had a problem with lugging bottles of milk around. It's what you do when you don't breast feed.
It's all in how it's done really, I suppose. I mean, if a woman puts the baby to one side, peels her t-shirt off with arms high above her head, loosens the bra and regards each breast with a soft squeeze before putting babies mouth around desired choice (a) or (b), all in a posh restaurant, then yeah, perhaps there will be an eyebrow raised.
Frankly, I can't wait to be a dad, go to a crowded posh eating hole, peel my t-shirt off to expose my milk filled plastic falsies and breast-feed in public.
Sorry but this is just ridiculous. So if she was pouring cows bodily fluids down the sink, and washing out a glass, youd be fine with it??? Also youd expect them to wash the pump in the toilet area where its all nice and full of germs for baby to possibly pick up, rather than in a food preparation area.Quote:
Originally posted by Enosekel
And as for the mother washing out her breast pump in a public food prep area...yes that thought is disgusting, for me too. I find it revolting because breast milk is a human body fluid. It's just as unsanitary as taking a cup full of spit or some other human fluid and dumping it out in a sink that other humans have to use and the fact that it was a food prep area makes it even more stomach-churning. Now maybe breast milk is germ free, I have no idea, but given what I've heard about the importance of mothers who breastfeed taking care of themselves for the sake of their baby's health, I doubt it. And even if it was perfectly sanitary, I think I'd still get grossed out by it, again just out of an ingrained fear of coming into contact with other peoples' body fluids.
Maddness..absolute maddness, the worlds turning on its head with the stuff!!
;)
I don't have a problem with public breastfeeding. Truthfully, I'd much rather deal with that than a screaming infant. It can certainly be awkward when the person next to you begins shifting clothing to begin breastfeeding, but negative responses to these things are socially conditioned into us and far more unnatural that what we are viewing.
This is why cow's milk says 'Pasteurized' on the label. Part of my workplace training went heavily into biological contaminants, and breast milk was indeed covered as a potential source. The simple fact is that any body fluid can transmit disease.Quote:
Originally posted by Bramond
Sorry but this is just ridiculous. So if she was pouring cows bodily fluids down the sink, and washing out a glass, youd be fine with it?
That said, I've always thought it rather silly to be deathly afraid of what's inside of other people. It's sensible to minimize the risks you can control, but even so, we are most definitely going to die despite this at some point. Better to live with a bit less stress and worry more about what we choose to do with our own lives.
As stated cow's milk is processed. A mother can easily get infections including Mastitis that is more well known in cows.Quote:
Originally posted by Bramond
Sorry but this is just ridiculous. So if she was pouring cows bodily fluids down the sink, and washing out a glass, youd be fine with it??? Also youd expect them to wash the pump in the toilet area where its all nice and full of germs for baby to possibly pick up, rather than in a food preparation area.
Maddness..absolute maddness, the worlds turning on its head with the stuff!!
;)
As far as washing the pump I would hope that they were using a better process then washing in a public sink whether it be in a bathroom or a kitchen area outside the home. I can assure you there is just as much germs in any publicly used area.
Ewww there's a lot of times I don't want to wash my hands in a public restroom, because I keep my skin cleaner than the sink faucets ever will be. I can't imagine "washing" anything in a public restroom.
:eek
As far as a woman breastfeeding in public, I think it's all about where and when she does it. Certain situations call for a little tact and taste...obviously you don't want to breastfeed in the middle of the workday with all your collegues looking on, or at a classy restaurant. But if it's like...at the park, somewhere not very crowded....I don't see a problem with it.
The problem is more people's reaction than the idea that there's anything wrong with the act. Good ol America especially. A lot of people can't handle any form of nakedness, not even their own. There's a wonderful thing about a mother breastfeeding her child that gets totally overwhelmed by some immature person going "OH MY GOD I SEE A BOOB!" :rolleyes There's nothing wrong with the act, it's just a matter of when the mother chooses to do it.
Actually I'd expect her to wash it out at home, just like most everyone else does who brings a food container to work anyway, despite it not having human fluids in it or being potentially dangerous to other people.Quote:
Originally posted by Bramond
Sorry but this is just ridiculous. So if she was pouring cows bodily fluids down the sink, and washing out a glass, youd be fine with it??? Also youd expect them to wash the pump in the toilet area where its all nice and full of germs for baby to possibly pick up, rather than in a food preparation area.
Maddness..absolute maddness, the worlds turning on its head with the stuff!!
;)
What I don't expect...no, wait, what I don't accept, given the selfish attitudes so many people have these days I guess I am not really surprised when this happens...is for someone to decide they're going to have a child and then think the rest of the world should make sacrifices for them or be inconvenienced/disgusted/put at risk for them because of it. Sorry, but if you decide to have kids, they're your responsibility and nobody else's.
And I can't believe you're even comparing human breast milk to the kind of milk you buy at the store. As everyone else has said, that milk is held up to very high health standards and goes through very closely regulated and complex processes to ensure it is clean and safe to consume.
Furthermore, even if it was not and someone just sucked it right out of the udder with their mouth: cows are not the same species, and diseases/infectious parasites/etc. aren't as transferrable to us from cows for this reason.
Why do you think hospitals have such incredibly stringent rules about dealing with medical waste? Why do you think everything in the hospital that could even have a remote possiblity of coming into contact with human body fluids is considered bioHAZARD material? Because there is a chance (especially in a place where people go when they are sick) that it could contain disease-causing organisms.
Why do you think people in third world countries, where they don't necessarily have the luxury of "food prep areas" that are free of diseases which can be found in substances originating from the human body, die much more frequently of preventable diseases that have been eliminated or are almost nonexistent in the country where YOU live (except in cases where people do -not- live under clean conditions or have been exposed to someone who does not)?
Why exactly do you think -real- disease epidemics (and no I don't mean people coming down with 'a bad case of the flu') happen in third world countries? Certainly malnutrition and other consequences of extreme poverty make a person more susceptible, but you can't catch something if it's not there in the first place.
Why do you think you can't find human breast milk on the shelves in the supermarket and adults who drink it are considered "weird"? Why is that taboo?
There have been studies done which measure peoples' reactions of disgust to things that may make us squeamish, such as rotten fruit, ugly insects, and other things. Always far above all the other things and by far the highest on the list of 'disgusting things' have been infected human flesh and human body fluids/biproducts. Even instinctually people know what to keep away from, because they know even without science what's dangerous for mortal beings.
Who knows, maybe the reason people don't like to see someone nursing in public is because they're disgusted by the possibility of human body fluids leaking on something they might touch, or by just seeing/thinking about the milk and having a gut reaction, not seeing naked human flesh. I can't speak for anyone else but while I could care less if women went around topless with boobs showing all day long, what I would not like is the possibility of coming into contact with their body fluids including breast milk. I'm quite accustomed to seeing boobs, having two of my own that I can look at all day long if I felt like it.
So no, it's not 'absolute madness' to be turned off by human biproducts, especially those from a stranger, being splattered and splashed all over the same place you have to eat. It's human nature. As I mentioned in my earlier post it seems natural to me for someone to nurse a baby, but a lot of other things humans do are "natural" too. We just don't do them in public because there are social taboos placed on them, for a reason: to maintain the safety and good health of those around you, and thus the integrity of the group as a whole.
Bramond, healthy urine is sterile, hostile to germs and completely sanitary. Healthy breast milk is not. However, if someone in your office had a catheterization, I hope you would agree that it isn't acceptable for them to rinse out their urine receptacle in the breakroom sink. It is all the more reasonable then, for people to take exception to someone washing out their breast pump in the breakroom. Now, I agree that washing it in the restroom is a bad idea, too, since you can't really get the pump sanitary there. However, 99% of breakrooms don't really allow for thorough cleaning anyway. In fact, I have NEVER heard of someone using the breakroom sink to wash their food dishes, let alone something used to prepare breast milk for a baby. A quick rinse, yes. But, you can't really properly clean a breast pump at work, in most cases. I honestly don't know what the reasonable solution is, since I don't know how often a day a woman at work needs to pump her breasts. I had the impression somehow that it was like a once every few hours thing, so if that's the case, she could just wait until she gets home to wash the thing.
This isn't an issue of offending people, it's just a hygiene thing.
OK, oh my god, I can't believe anyone would go to the extreme of comparing human breast milk to rotting human flesh or medical biohazard. If it is such a medical threat for people to come in contact with breast milk, why would maternity wards encourage women to breast feed and even provide people to help new mothers learn how to do it? I can't even begin to tell you how utterly absurd and ridiculous that argument is, it is beyond any reasonable stretch to make that comparison.
However, I do begin to see that, yes, this sort of thing can make some people uncomfortable. So, I have come up with a solution which I think would make all those who feel nursing mothers are too horrible to behold a little more secure. What I suggest is that any pregnant or post-partum mother be removed from public sight, perhaps kept inside the house and not be allowed to venture out of doors. If, though, that woman *does* need to go out of the house, let's say she needs to buy formula, since breast milk is the single most terrible substance ever to exist (it causes most third-world epidemics, you know), I think it is only fair to make that woman swathe her body from head to toe in some sort of restrictive clothing, it would be even better if it was all black. Just to ensure that no woman dare expose any of her body to the public, there should be some sort of consequence in place, I think maybe something like public stonings or floggings for such women would be appropriate.
I hope any mother out there that dares to think her child should gain the benefits of breast-feeding (even though breast milk is the perfect food for babies) realizes that it is selfish and rude of her to force the rest of the world, who have made that decision not to have children or babies as part of their lives, to witness or even have to imagine what sort of demonic things could be happening! For shame.
Here's a link
http://www.medela.ca/English/Breastf..._benefits.html
Quote:
Originally posted by Jozep
OK, However, I do begin to see that, yes, this sort of thing can make some people uncomfortable. So, I have come up with a solution which I think would make all those who feel nursing mothers are too horrible to behold a little more secure. What I suggest is that any pregnant or post-partum mother be removed from public sight, perhaps kept inside the house and not be allowed to venture out of doors. If, though, that woman *does* need to go out of the house, let's say she needs to buy formula, since breast milk is the single most terrible substance ever to exist (it causes most third-world epidemics, you know), I think it is only fair to make that woman swathe her body from head to toe in some sort of restrictive clothing, it would be even better if it was all black. Just to ensure that no woman dare expose any of her body to the public, there should be some sort of consequence in place, I think maybe something like public stonings or floggings for such women would be appropriate.
I hope any mother out there that dares to think her child should gain the benefits of breast-feeding (even though breast milk is the perfect food for babies) realizes that it is selfish and rude of her to force the rest of the world, who have made that decision not to have children or babies as part of their lives, to witness or even have to imagine what sort of demonic things could be happening! For shame.
Here's a link
http://www.medela.ca/English/Breastf..._benefits.html
Give me a break! I think you're getting a bit overboard here. Nobody said that breastfeeding was a bad thing. The whole thing is some don't feel comfortable with seeing a woman pull out her breast. While the other part was cleaning a breast pump where people often put food on a counter and eat. Where I may be comfortable with my own body and my own bodily fluids it does not make me comfortable with someone elses bodily fluids.
You putting a link up as the benefits of breastfeeding is all fine and dandy but some people CHOOSE not to breast feed. Some don't even have that choice due to other issues. It's a mother's choice if she decides to breast feed or not. I don't think anyone should knocked down for breast feeding and I don't think anyone should be knocked down for choosing to feed their child with formula. Even though breast feeding is the best thing for a child it's alot of pressure on a woman who doesn't feel comfortable with doing it and it's alot more pressure on a woman who would like to do it but can't.
Wow. Now, I almost want to have a baby just so I can breastfeed in public and piss people off.
Man, give breast feeders a break. You people are worse than the taliban!
Wonderful idea, Jozep, let's turn this into a flame war instead of a productive discussion.
Maternity wards encourage women to breast feed because current medical studies prove it's the healthiest (both emotionally and physically) option for the baby.Quote:
Originally posted by Jozep
OK, oh my god, I can't believe anyone would go to the extreme of comparing human breast milk to rotting human flesh or medical biohazard. If it is such a medical threat for people to come in contact with breast milk, why would maternity wards encourage women to breast feed and even provide people to help new mothers learn how to do it?
I wasn't comparing human breast milk to rotting human flesh, if you re-read what I wrote, what I said was that human body fluids (which, guess what, includes breast milk) and infected human flesh were found to cause the greatest reactions of disgust in people. That's a fact and apparently a natural reaction of human beings.
Maybe you could find some of these studies online if you don't believe me rather than posting links about how great breastfeeding is that do nothing to support your argument...or whatever that was.
Of -course- breastfeeding is the best for (most) babies, why else would mammals lactate if there was something more practical and healthy for their babies to feed on? That's not the topic under debate, though. It's the social implications of public breastfeeding.
Maybe while you're out there finding relevant facts, you could also find some psychology studies which explain that the reason you and likely many other people are so offended by what I wrote is because you've been socialized to think mothers and babies are pure, good things who need to be protected from...I don't know, people like me concerned about public health, I guess...whom you percieve as a threat to what mothers and babies represent to you, i.e. your value system. And you feel so threatened by the simple facts I've presented, which most everyone in the industrialized world has common knowledge of anyway, that you're willing to fling out counterproductive insults and ramble on about locking nursing mothers up and turning our society into something similar to the one Afghans experienced under the Taliban's rule, when no one before your post has even come close to suggesting such a thing.
So, sorry if you're offended, but everything I've said was based on common sense and scientific facts, not to mention delivered in a much more respectful manner:
1) Human body fluids are not clean and safe for other people to ingest, unless you're nursing a baby with breast milk, and even then, should the woman be infected, her child is also at risk. Therefore, people should not be washing out breast pumps in places their coworkers have to eat in.
2) Most deadly diseases are transferred from one person to another by the exchange of body fluids. Therefore, we should do what we can to take steps to eliminate contact with body fluids in public places, and keep our work environments as safe and sanitary as possible for the good of all people, including the nursing mothers.
Nobody ever said anything about nursing mothers being too horrible to behold or needing to be locked up, and you know it. As I have already made quite clear, the issue at stake (for me anyway) is public hygiene, and, like it or not, the social taboos surrounding nursing in public are for all of our protection, all including moms and babies. Unsanitary conditions effect moms and babies just as negatively, if not worse in the case of babies, than other people, and if you're so bent out of shape over protecting them, maybe you should stop and think about that for a bit.Quote:
Originally posted by Jozep
...So, I have come up with a solution which I think would make all those who feel nursing mothers are too horrible to behold a little more secure. What I suggest is that any pregnant or post-partum mother be removed from public sight, perhaps kept inside the house and not be allowed to venture out of doors....blah blah blah...
Once again, I think you need to re-read what everyone has written.Quote:
Originally posted by Jozep
...let's say she needs to buy formula, since breast milk is the single most terrible substance ever to exist (it causes most third-world epidemics, you know), I think it is only fair to make that woman swathe her body from head to toe in some sort of restrictive clothing, it would be even better if it was all black. Just to ensure that no woman dare expose any of her body to the public, there should be some sort of consequence in place, I think maybe something like public stonings or floggings for such women would be appropriate...
1) Nobody said anything like: "breast milk is the single most terrible substance ever to exist (it causes most third world epidemics, don't you know)"...except you. What was said was that -scientific facts- prove that human breast milk CAN CONTAIN and CAN TRANSMIT disease-causing organisms and thus it is not appropriate to put others at risk for your convenience by washing out a breast pump in a public break room.
2) What was said was that in third world countries, once again, the -facts- show that disease is commonly spread by food and water sources being contaminated by substances originating from the human body. Of course you find a lot more crap than breast milk contaminating things we eat, but nobody was saying breast milk is the largest contributor to disease epidemics, only that it also can be a dangerous substance for the reasons already mentioned by a few people.
Once again, Jozep, nobody is saying mothers shouldn't breastfeed their babies, or that it's demonic or sinful or whatever you're trying to say here. Nobody even remotely suggested that so I'm not sure how any of this is relevant.Quote:
Originally posted by Jozep
...I hope any mother out there that dares to think her child should gain the benefits of breast-feeding (even though breast milk is the perfect food for babies) realizes that it is selfish and rude of her to force the rest of the world, who have made that decision not to have children or babies as part of their lives, to witness or even have to imagine what sort of demonic things could be happening! For shame....
All I and some others were doing was presenting scientific facts that are so well known as to be almost common knowledge for most people in our society, and one could logically conclude, given these fundamental, basic scientific understandings, that certain behaviors are unsanitary and risky, and therefore it would be a good idea for more hygenic alternative behaviors and solutions to be found.
And yes, some other people have said here that they don't think seeing women's breasts displayed in public is acceptable either, which, as even your earlier post suggested you concur with, is because they're an eroticized body part and thus a social taboo. But to deduce that this means they want to turn nursing mothers into cloistered women and mummify them in black wraps is just plain irrational and really counterproductive to the discussion.
Yes, it is absurd and ridiculous, but before you posted your suggestions, nobody else was arguing anything like that. Those were your words.Quote:
Originally posted by Jozep
I can't even begin to tell you how utterly absurd and ridiculous that argument is, it is beyond any reasonable stretch to make that comparison.
Touching back down to planet earth...
Although yes I know there are exceptions, most of the time, from what I have seen anyway, public breastfeeding issues seem to happen when mothers who work outside the home are nursing, not with stay at home moms who have the luxury of pumping/nursing at home and planning their lives around the baby's schedule.
Therefore, to me anyway, a logical solution that would go a long way toward solving the "issue" of public breastfeeding (although truly for me and I assume most people who don't lactate, it's not an issue) which would make everyone happy is to make changes in the workplace to accomodate all people and make everyone feel comfortable, all people including mothers and their colleagues.
Some progressive companies now have special rooms where parents can feed their babies/pump milk, built both to have a hygenic, private place to do it and to keep other people who are offended by boobs/nursing-related stuff happening in public, from having to deal with it.
Surely even small businesses without big bucks and a female-run HR department, or a PR department to think these things up, can let nursing mothers who have to deal with pumping/feeding during work hours use a back office a couple times a day or however long it takes, so she can have a little privacy. Given the lawsuits and things you see these days, and how simple and reasonable of a request it is, I'd be willing to bet that a nursing mother could just tell her boss her situation and ask for a solution to be found, and it would happen, if facilities were not in place already.
Besides all the other reasons already mentioned why public breastfeeding is not ideal for feeding a baby, there are other reasons that I think these considerations should be made for nursing moms. I think that the more friendly workplaces (or all public places, actually) can be made for mothers, the more likely it is that women will someday be able to have an equal place among male colleagues at work as far as how much they are able to contribute without sacrificing their family, and how much they are percieved as being equally dedicated to their career as their male colleagues are...which of course is reflected in their salaries and their rank within the company, both of which are still even today horribly and unacceptably unequal.
Unfortunately women are the only humans who can have babies, and in my observation and personal experiences, for female executives and I imagine most other working women, they always end up making a forced choice to make sacrifices either of their family life, or their career, since the expectations of employers don't always take into account a woman's family role as much as they should.
Some links working moms may be interested in:
The National Association for Female Executives (NAFE): http://www.nafe.com/
Working Mother Magazine: http://www.workingmother.com/ - Covers all the topics relevant to working moms, including public breastfeeding. They also have some really good webinars, the way I found out about them was a webinar they hosted earlier this year about work/life balance. I was very impressed with the new ways of looking at things I'd never thought of before, and the solutions that innovative companies who care about their employees are coming up with for women employees.
The Catalyst Womens' Organization: http://www.catalystwomen.org/ - This organization gives out an annual Catalyst Award to companies which have outstanding inclusion programs for their women employees. Normally I'm not one for supporting corporations, but if you are going to buy products or endorse them, I guess I'd rather buy from a company that shows true concern for their employees. If anything, for those of you who are or may someday be working moms - maybe these are the companies you'd want to support by getting a job there :)
It is a valid point that breastmilk is a bodily fluid and can therefore spread disease. While a baby who comes into contact with this also receives his mother's antibodies through the milk, someone who encounters breastmilk on the breakroom counter won't. Not that there's much chance of it anyway - the amount of milk left in the pump is not much at all.
A woman pumping at work will probably have to do it every 3 or 4 hours at first, so she might have to pump twice during the workday, which makes rinsing the pump a necessity. Usually breast pumps have several extra parts to replace the ones that have already been used that day, but it's still a good idea to rinse the rest of the pump. I would say the most appropriate place would be the bathroom. Let's face it: People are washing bodily fluids from their hands in the bathroom. That's the place to wash bodily fluids down the drain.
As for people fearing contamination by being near a woman breastfeeing in public, it's not really much of a worry. Most women don't even have to touch their milk because babies are naturally greedy. I'd be more concerned with encountering spit-up in a public place. Thankfully, breastfed babies tend to spit up a lot less as a whole.
Enosekel, the news story that began this thread was about women staging a "feed in" after someone was asked to leave a store, I believe. While I fully agree with you about the issues of working and nursing, the issue is much broader than that. We won't really begin to improve a woman's right to nurse/pump in the workplace until we deal with the social stigma.
In a personal anecdote, one of my friends was asked to leave a parking lot because she was breastfeeding her daughter in her car and the security guard saw her. :(
This thread is rather surprising to me. The fact that the group having a problem with these things is big enough to be noticed caught my attention.
In all cultures there is a norm when it comes to nudity. There is a big difference between the naked women in some unspoiled parts of the world to the Afghanistan women who had to be 100% covered when leaving their house.
In the US it seem like the gab between what people think is acceptable is getting wider and wider. I would have expected that advertisement, pop stars, models and sexy clothing would have made breast feeding invisible in the big picture.
On the matter of health risk I would like to point out that there are bacteria all around us ;-)
- Yes, it is right that you have to be careful at a hospital because you have lots of sick people in a small area who are checked by the same staff.
- Yes, it is also right that the lack of knowledge around hygiene lead to disease in our past and still does in a big part of the world. Open toilets near living areas, warm climate, lots of insects and a lack of knowledge make the situation dangerous in these countries. It still does not have much to do with the health risk in most of our lives.
- I have heard that a person placed in a sterile environment would have such a bad immune system after half a year that he/she would most likely die from normal exposure. No idea if this is true or not but it is a sure thing that you need to get some bacteria to keep your immune system working.
- At the university I heard about a group who had checked different places for bacteria: I can remember that it resulted in Computer Keyboards being disgusting compared to Toilet Seats. This does not change the fact that I would clean a public toilet seat before use but not give it much thought if I used a public keyboard. (How do you feel about shaking hands?)
- I must admit that I have a hard time believing that Breast Milk can be that dangerous even if it was poured in huger amounts into the sink.
- I am not sure how the bacteria would get from the sink and into the things being cleaned.
- I believe the lower temperature outside the body would kill most of the ‘dangerous’ bacteria.
From my view it looks like the problem with the Breast Milk in the sink is more a mental issue than a health issue. This does not change the relevance but it changes the arguments for and against it.
I must admit that I have a hard time understanding how all these things can become such a big problem. But then again we all see the world differently and we need to find common ground so that people do not have to go out of their way to please a few but at the same time make sure that a few do not make a large group uncomfortable by their behaviour.
(All the above is the things I have heard or what I believe. I do not have a medical degree and I have no intention of searching the web for hours to look for links.)
-Peter
I completely agree that it's much more a mental issue than a health issue. Only in America can you sue because you find a cooked chickens' head in with chicken nuggets. That's totally people suing over being "grossed" out.Quote:
Originally posted by Miromina
From my view it looks like the problem with the Breast Milk in the sink is more a mental issue than a health issue. This does not change the relevance but it changes the arguments for and against it.
You can actually buy human breast milk. It's just extremely expensive since we're not willing to hook ourselves up to the machines that we're willing to hook cows up to. I don't really see that big of a difference comparing human milk (especially how LITTLE there is left in a breast pump) to dumping some other liquid down the drain that has touched our lips, has our saliva in it, etc.Quote:
And I can't believe you're even comparing human breast milk to the kind of milk you buy at the store. As everyone else has said, that milk is held up to very high health standards and goes through very closely regulated and complex processes to ensure it is clean and safe to consume.
I'm pretty freaking grossed out by people who chew tobacco. I admit to getting kinda grossed out when some guy starts blowing his nose into a napkin really loudly in a public restaurant. My first immediate thought is "Boy, I hope my napkin never had anyone doing that to it." People sneeze, cough, and spit on each other all day long, just by talking to each other. You're more likely to get something from that from than from someone rising out a pump, but it seems that breastfeeding is just an easier target.
I think that's the problem with this entire issue. Breastfeeding gets singled out for a lot of attacks, whereas anyone can put on a spandex outfit and walk around in the mall showing more than a breastfeeding mother. :P
In fairness to me, I would be equally appalled by all those things (except the spandex thing... I might be apalled for reasons of fashion/aesthetics, but that's about it). For me, at least, it is TOTALLY about body fluid phobias. I couldn't care less about a woman breastfeeding in public. Even if she did it topless on Main Street during rush hour, I wouldn't bat an eye, but the idea of getting her breast milk on a surface I have to use later is just as gross to me as if someone left any other body fluid there.Quote:
Originally posted by Dalaena I'm pretty freaking grossed out by people who chew tobacco. I admit to getting kinda grossed out when some guy starts blowing his nose into a napkin really loudly in a public restaurant. My first immediate thought is "Boy, I hope my napkin never had anyone doing that to it." People sneeze, cough, and spit on each other all day long, just by talking to each other. You're more likely to get something from that from than from someone rising out a pump, but it seems that breastfeeding is just an easier target.
I think that's the problem with this entire issue. Breastfeeding gets singled out for a lot of attacks, whereas anyone can put on a spandex outfit and walk around in the mall showing more than a breastfeeding mother. :P [/B]