Breast-feeding in public

Bramond, healthy urine is sterile, hostile to germs and completely sanitary. Healthy breast milk is not. However, if someone in your office had a catheterization, I hope you would agree that it isn't acceptable for them to rinse out their urine receptacle in the breakroom sink. It is all the more reasonable then, for people to take exception to someone washing out their breast pump in the breakroom. Now, I agree that washing it in the restroom is a bad idea, too, since you can't really get the pump sanitary there. However, 99% of breakrooms don't really allow for thorough cleaning anyway. In fact, I have NEVER heard of someone using the breakroom sink to wash their food dishes, let alone something used to prepare breast milk for a baby. A quick rinse, yes. But, you can't really properly clean a breast pump at work, in most cases. I honestly don't know what the reasonable solution is, since I don't know how often a day a woman at work needs to pump her breasts. I had the impression somehow that it was like a once every few hours thing, so if that's the case, she could just wait until she gets home to wash the thing.

This isn't an issue of offending people, it's just a hygiene thing.

OK, oh my god, I can't believe anyone would go to the extreme of comparing human breast milk to rotting human flesh or medical biohazard. If it is such a medical threat for people to come in contact with breast milk, why would maternity wards encourage women to breast feed and even provide people to help new mothers learn how to do it? I can't even begin to tell you how utterly absurd and ridiculous that argument is, it is beyond any reasonable stretch to make that comparison.

However, I do begin to see that, yes, this sort of thing can make some people uncomfortable. So, I have come up with a solution which I think would make all those who feel nursing mothers are too horrible to behold a little more secure. What I suggest is that any pregnant or post-partum mother be removed from public sight, perhaps kept inside the house and not be allowed to venture out of doors. If, though, that woman *does* need to go out of the house, let's say she needs to buy formula, since breast milk is the single most terrible substance ever to exist (it causes most third-world epidemics, you know), I think it is only fair to make that woman swathe her body from head to toe in some sort of restrictive clothing, it would be even better if it was all black. Just to ensure that no woman dare expose any of her body to the public, there should be some sort of consequence in place, I think maybe something like public stonings or floggings for such women would be appropriate.

I hope any mother out there that dares to think her child should gain the benefits of breast-feeding (even though breast milk is the perfect food for babies) realizes that it is selfish and rude of her to force the rest of the world, who have made that decision not to have children or babies as part of their lives, to witness or even have to imagine what sort of demonic things could be happening! For shame.

Here's a link

http://www.medela.ca/English/Breastf..._benefits.html

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Originally posted by Jozep
OK, However, I do begin to see that, yes, this sort of thing can make some people uncomfortable. So, I have come up with a solution which I think would make all those who feel nursing mothers are too horrible to behold a little more secure. What I suggest is that any pregnant or post-partum mother be removed from public sight, perhaps kept inside the house and not be allowed to venture out of doors. If, though, that woman *does* need to go out of the house, let's say she needs to buy formula, since breast milk is the single most terrible substance ever to exist (it causes most third-world epidemics, you know), I think it is only fair to make that woman swathe her body from head to toe in some sort of restrictive clothing, it would be even better if it was all black. Just to ensure that no woman dare expose any of her body to the public, there should be some sort of consequence in place, I think maybe something like public stonings or floggings for such women would be appropriate.

I hope any mother out there that dares to think her child should gain the benefits of breast-feeding (even though breast milk is the perfect food for babies) realizes that it is selfish and rude of her to force the rest of the world, who have made that decision not to have children or babies as part of their lives, to witness or even have to imagine what sort of demonic things could be happening! For shame.

Here's a link

http://www.medela.ca/English/Breastf..._benefits.html

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Give me a break! I think you're getting a bit overboard here. Nobody said that breastfeeding was a bad thing. The whole thing is some don't feel comfortable with seeing a woman pull out her breast. While the other part was cleaning a breast pump where people often put food on a counter and eat. Where I may be comfortable with my own body and my own bodily fluids it does not make me comfortable with someone elses bodily fluids.

You putting a link up as the benefits of breastfeeding is all fine and dandy but some people CHOOSE not to breast feed. Some don't even have that choice due to other issues. It's a mother's choice if she decides to breast feed or not. I don't think anyone should knocked down for breast feeding and I don't think anyone should be knocked down for choosing to feed their child with formula. Even though breast feeding is the best thing for a child it's alot of pressure on a woman who doesn't feel comfortable with doing it and it's alot more pressure on a woman who would like to do it but can't.

Wow. Now, I almost want to have a baby just so I can breastfeed in public and piss people off.

Man, give breast feeders a break. You people are worse than the taliban!

Wonderful idea, Jozep, let's turn this into a flame war instead of a productive discussion.

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Originally posted by Jozep
OK, oh my god, I can't believe anyone would go to the extreme of comparing human breast milk to rotting human flesh or medical biohazard. If it is such a medical threat for people to come in contact with breast milk, why would maternity wards encourage women to breast feed and even provide people to help new mothers learn how to do it?

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Maternity wards encourage women to breast feed because current medical studies prove it's the healthiest (both emotionally and physically) option for the baby.

I wasn't comparing human breast milk to rotting human flesh, if you re-read what I wrote, what I said was that human body fluids (which, guess what, includes breast milk) and infected human flesh were found to cause the greatest reactions of disgust in people. That's a fact and apparently a natural reaction of human beings.

Maybe you could find some of these studies online if you don't believe me rather than posting links about how great breastfeeding is that do nothing to support your argument...or whatever that was.

Of -course- breastfeeding is the best for (most) babies, why else would mammals lactate if there was something more practical and healthy for their babies to feed on? That's not the topic under debate, though. It's the social implications of public breastfeeding.

Maybe while you're out there finding relevant facts, you could also find some psychology studies which explain that the reason you and likely many other people are so offended by what I wrote is because you've been socialized to think mothers and babies are pure, good things who need to be protected from...I don't know, people like me concerned about public health, I guess...whom you percieve as a threat to what mothers and babies represent to you, i.e. your value system. And you feel so threatened by the simple facts I've presented, which most everyone in the industrialized world has common knowledge of anyway, that you're willing to fling out counterproductive insults and ramble on about locking nursing mothers up and turning our society into something similar to the one Afghans experienced under the Taliban's rule, when no one before your post has even come close to suggesting such a thing.

So, sorry if you're offended, but everything I've said was based on common sense and scientific facts, not to mention delivered in a much more respectful manner:

1) Human body fluids are not clean and safe for other people to ingest, unless you're nursing a baby with breast milk, and even then, should the woman be infected, her child is also at risk. Therefore, people should not be washing out breast pumps in places their coworkers have to eat in.

2) Most deadly diseases are transferred from one person to another by the exchange of body fluids. Therefore, we should do what we can to take steps to eliminate contact with body fluids in public places, and keep our work environments as safe and sanitary as possible for the good of all people, including the nursing mothers.

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Originally posted by Jozep
...So, I have come up with a solution which I think would make all those who feel nursing mothers are too horrible to behold a little more secure. What I suggest is that any pregnant or post-partum mother be removed from public sight, perhaps kept inside the house and not be allowed to venture out of doors....blah blah blah...

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Nobody ever said anything about nursing mothers being too horrible to behold or needing to be locked up, and you know it. As I have already made quite clear, the issue at stake (for me anyway) is public hygiene, and, like it or not, the social taboos surrounding nursing in public are for all of our protection, all including moms and babies. Unsanitary conditions effect moms and babies just as negatively, if not worse in the case of babies, than other people, and if you're so bent out of shape over protecting them, maybe you should stop and think about that for a bit.

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Originally posted by Jozep
...let's say she needs to buy formula, since breast milk is the single most terrible substance ever to exist (it causes most third-world epidemics, you know), I think it is only fair to make that woman swathe her body from head to toe in some sort of restrictive clothing, it would be even better if it was all black. Just to ensure that no woman dare expose any of her body to the public, there should be some sort of consequence in place, I think maybe something like public stonings or floggings for such women would be appropriate...

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Once again, I think you need to re-read what everyone has written.

1) Nobody said anything like: "breast milk is the single most terrible substance ever to exist (it causes most third world epidemics, don't you know)"...except you. What was said was that -scientific facts- prove that human breast milk CAN CONTAIN and CAN TRANSMIT disease-causing organisms and thus it is not appropriate to put others at risk for your convenience by washing out a breast pump in a public break room.

2) What was said was that in third world countries, once again, the -facts- show that disease is commonly spread by food and water sources being contaminated by substances originating from the human body. Of course you find a lot more crap than breast milk contaminating things we eat, but nobody was saying breast milk is the largest contributor to disease epidemics, only that it also can be a dangerous substance for the reasons already mentioned by a few people.

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Originally posted by Jozep
...I hope any mother out there that dares to think her child should gain the benefits of breast-feeding (even though breast milk is the perfect food for babies) realizes that it is selfish and rude of her to force the rest of the world, who have made that decision not to have children or babies as part of their lives, to witness or even have to imagine what sort of demonic things could be happening! For shame....

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Once again, Jozep, nobody is saying mothers shouldn't breastfeed their babies, or that it's demonic or sinful or whatever you're trying to say here. Nobody even remotely suggested that so I'm not sure how any of this is relevant.

All I and some others were doing was presenting scientific facts that are so well known as to be almost common knowledge for most people in our society, and one could logically conclude, given these fundamental, basic scientific understandings, that certain behaviors are unsanitary and risky, and therefore it would be a good idea for more hygenic alternative behaviors and solutions to be found.

And yes, some other people have said here that they don't think seeing women's breasts displayed in public is acceptable either, which, as even your earlier post suggested you concur with, is because they're an eroticized body part and thus a social taboo. But to deduce that this means they want to turn nursing mothers into cloistered women and mummify them in black wraps is just plain irrational and really counterproductive to the discussion.

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Originally posted by Jozep
I can't even begin to tell you how utterly absurd and ridiculous that argument is, it is beyond any reasonable stretch to make that comparison.

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Yes, it is absurd and ridiculous, but before you posted your suggestions, nobody else was arguing anything like that. Those were your words.

Touching back down to planet earth...

Although yes I know there are exceptions, most of the time, from what I have seen anyway, public breastfeeding issues seem to happen when mothers who work outside the home are nursing, not with stay at home moms who have the luxury of pumping/nursing at home and planning their lives around the baby's schedule.

Therefore, to me anyway, a logical solution that would go a long way toward solving the "issue" of public breastfeeding (although truly for me and I assume most people who don't lactate, it's not an issue) which would make everyone happy is to make changes in the workplace to accomodate all people and make everyone feel comfortable, all people including mothers and their colleagues.

Some progressive companies now have special rooms where parents can feed their babies/pump milk, built both to have a hygenic, private place to do it and to keep other people who are offended by boobs/nursing-related stuff happening in public, from having to deal with it.

Surely even small businesses without big bucks and a female-run HR department, or a PR department to think these things up, can let nursing mothers who have to deal with pumping/feeding during work hours use a back office a couple times a day or however long it takes, so she can have a little privacy. Given the lawsuits and things you see these days, and how simple and reasonable of a request it is, I'd be willing to bet that a nursing mother could just tell her boss her situation and ask for a solution to be found, and it would happen, if facilities were not in place already.

Besides all the other reasons already mentioned why public breastfeeding is not ideal for feeding a baby, there are other reasons that I think these considerations should be made for nursing moms. I think that the more friendly workplaces (or all public places, actually) can be made for mothers, the more likely it is that women will someday be able to have an equal place among male colleagues at work as far as how much they are able to contribute without sacrificing their family, and how much they are percieved as being equally dedicated to their career as their male colleagues are...which of course is reflected in their salaries and their rank within the company, both of which are still even today horribly and unacceptably unequal.

Unfortunately women are the only humans who can have babies, and in my observation and personal experiences, for female executives and I imagine most other working women, they always end up making a forced choice to make sacrifices either of their family life, or their career, since the expectations of employers don't always take into account a woman's family role as much as they should.

Some links working moms may be interested in:

The National Association for Female Executives (NAFE): http://www.nafe.com/

Working Mother Magazine: http://www.workingmother.com/ - Covers all the topics relevant to working moms, including public breastfeeding. They also have some really good webinars, the way I found out about them was a webinar they hosted earlier this year about work/life balance. I was very impressed with the new ways of looking at things I'd never thought of before, and the solutions that innovative companies who care about their employees are coming up with for women employees.

The Catalyst Womens' Organization: http://www.catalystwomen.org/ - This organization gives out an annual Catalyst Award to companies which have outstanding inclusion programs for their women employees. Normally I'm not one for supporting corporations, but if you are going to buy products or endorse them, I guess I'd rather buy from a company that shows true concern for their employees. If anything, for those of you who are or may someday be working moms - maybe these are the companies you'd want to support by getting a job there :)

It is a valid point that breastmilk is a bodily fluid and can therefore spread disease. While a baby who comes into contact with this also receives his mother's antibodies through the milk, someone who encounters breastmilk on the breakroom counter won't. Not that there's much chance of it anyway - the amount of milk left in the pump is not much at all.

A woman pumping at work will probably have to do it every 3 or 4 hours at first, so she might have to pump twice during the workday, which makes rinsing the pump a necessity. Usually breast pumps have several extra parts to replace the ones that have already been used that day, but it's still a good idea to rinse the rest of the pump. I would say the most appropriate place would be the bathroom. Let's face it: People are washing bodily fluids from their hands in the bathroom. That's the place to wash bodily fluids down the drain.

As for people fearing contamination by being near a woman breastfeeing in public, it's not really much of a worry. Most women don't even have to touch their milk because babies are naturally greedy. I'd be more concerned with encountering spit-up in a public place. Thankfully, breastfed babies tend to spit up a lot less as a whole.

Enosekel, the news story that began this thread was about women staging a "feed in" after someone was asked to leave a store, I believe. While I fully agree with you about the issues of working and nursing, the issue is much broader than that. We won't really begin to improve a woman's right to nurse/pump in the workplace until we deal with the social stigma.

In a personal anecdote, one of my friends was asked to leave a parking lot because she was breastfeeding her daughter in her car and the security guard saw her. :(

This thread is rather surprising to me. The fact that the group having a problem with these things is big enough to be noticed caught my attention.

In all cultures there is a norm when it comes to nudity. There is a big difference between the naked women in some unspoiled parts of the world to the Afghanistan women who had to be 100% covered when leaving their house.

In the US it seem like the gab between what people think is acceptable is getting wider and wider. I would have expected that advertisement, pop stars, models and sexy clothing would have made breast feeding invisible in the big picture.

On the matter of health risk I would like to point out that there are bacteria all around us ;-)
- Yes, it is right that you have to be careful at a hospital because you have lots of sick people in a small area who are checked by the same staff.
- Yes, it is also right that the lack of knowledge around hygiene lead to disease in our past and still does in a big part of the world. Open toilets near living areas, warm climate, lots of insects and a lack of knowledge make the situation dangerous in these countries. It still does not have much to do with the health risk in most of our lives.
- I have heard that a person placed in a sterile environment would have such a bad immune system after half a year that he/she would most likely die from normal exposure. No idea if this is true or not but it is a sure thing that you need to get some bacteria to keep your immune system working.
- At the university I heard about a group who had checked different places for bacteria: I can remember that it resulted in Computer Keyboards being disgusting compared to Toilet Seats. This does not change the fact that I would clean a public toilet seat before use but not give it much thought if I used a public keyboard. (How do you feel about shaking hands?)
- I must admit that I have a hard time believing that Breast Milk can be that dangerous even if it was poured in huger amounts into the sink.
- I am not sure how the bacteria would get from the sink and into the things being cleaned.
- I believe the lower temperature outside the body would kill most of the ‘dangerous’ bacteria.

From my view it looks like the problem with the Breast Milk in the sink is more a mental issue than a health issue. This does not change the relevance but it changes the arguments for and against it.

I must admit that I have a hard time understanding how all these things can become such a big problem. But then again we all see the world differently and we need to find common ground so that people do not have to go out of their way to please a few but at the same time make sure that a few do not make a large group uncomfortable by their behaviour.

(All the above is the things I have heard or what I believe. I do not have a medical degree and I have no intention of searching the web for hours to look for links.)

-Peter

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Originally posted by Miromina
From my view it looks like the problem with the Breast Milk in the sink is more a mental issue than a health issue. This does not change the relevance but it changes the arguments for and against it.

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I completely agree that it's much more a mental issue than a health issue. Only in America can you sue because you find a cooked chickens' head in with chicken nuggets. That's totally people suing over being "grossed" out.

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And I can't believe you're even comparing human breast milk to the kind of milk you buy at the store. As everyone else has said, that milk is held up to very high health standards and goes through very closely regulated and complex processes to ensure it is clean and safe to consume.

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You can actually buy human breast milk. It's just extremely expensive since we're not willing to hook ourselves up to the machines that we're willing to hook cows up to. I don't really see that big of a difference comparing human milk (especially how LITTLE there is left in a breast pump) to dumping some other liquid down the drain that has touched our lips, has our saliva in it, etc.

I'm pretty freaking grossed out by people who chew tobacco. I admit to getting kinda grossed out when some guy starts blowing his nose into a napkin really loudly in a public restaurant. My first immediate thought is "Boy, I hope my napkin never had anyone doing that to it." People sneeze, cough, and spit on each other all day long, just by talking to each other. You're more likely to get something from that from than from someone rising out a pump, but it seems that breastfeeding is just an easier target.

I think that's the problem with this entire issue. Breastfeeding gets singled out for a lot of attacks, whereas anyone can put on a spandex outfit and walk around in the mall showing more than a breastfeeding mother. :P