Idiots in Iraq and their Moronic Photos

I'm sure you've all heard about the crap going on at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

This situation is becoming a perfect example of why I can hardly stand politics these days. Instead of just seeing a problem and working to fix it, the issue will be absurdly politicised and the two sides will take it to equally erroneous extremes.

One side will say its no big deal and that shit happens during wartime.

The other side will treat this as an indictment of the entire military, proof that the whole liberation was wrong, and blame Bush.

Here is an interesting political cartoon that does somewhat put things in perspective:

http://images.suntimes.com/images3/h...ggins35006.gif

My only concern about that cartoon is that some might interpret that to mean since they messed with us, anything we do is acceptable. That would be a totally improper conclusion.

A friend of mine asked me how I think something like this can happen. What I said to him was:

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Here's the recipe:

1) You take a bunch of people (enlisted folks) with (at best) a high school degree.

2) You break them down psychologically so you can send them into places they know they have a high possibility of being killed.

3) You drop them in an area where they are hated for no logical reason- simply because they are Americans.

4) They risk their lives to help people, and then by their perception, the same people are trying to kill them.

5) Bear in mind, that in order to deal with the possibility of killing people, you inherently have to conclude they are less human than you. It is a moral justification that a lot of people make in order to be able to kill.

6) Heat to 110 degrees (whatever it is there), stir in the fact that most of them are many months beyond their original deployment date, and there you go.

They should all spend a few years breaking big rocks into smaller rocks as far as I'm concerned, but to interpret this as an indictment on the entire military or our efforts in general is absurd.

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I despise the way every single thing that happens in the world has to be seized upon by political whores as their latest weapon in the war to discredit, rather than simply disagree, with the other side.

It makes me absolutely sick and it is a perversion of our political process. Our system was designed to promote debate so that the truth could rise to the top. My, how far we have fallen.

Oh, I don't think our government is done falling.

In fact, I'm writing a theological paper on the issue of our government and all of its corrupt methods and lines of thought.

In regards to the prison fiasco....orders were issued. It's the duty of the lower ranks to obey the orders of a higher rank. Those of the lower rank are to assume that the order is a legal one, for it's the responsibility of the one issuing the order to ensure it's legal.

I think the person(s) who issued the order should be on trial, not those who carried the order out. This argument goes back as far as the courts hearing the case about Hitler's men.

Oh, some of the actions I read about were in fact horrible. The soldier having sex with a female prisoner? That is no where near being "legal".

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Originally posted by Ganthrol
In regards to the prison fiasco....orders were issued. It's the duty of the lower ranks to obey the orders of a higher rank. Those of the lower rank are to assume that the order is a legal one, for it's the responsibility of the one issuing the order to ensure it's legal.

I think the person(s) who issued the order should be on trial, not those who carried the order out. This argument goes back as far as the courts hearing the case about Hitler's men.

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I don't know how it is in the American army, but in the Israeli army there is a term called "illegal order", which basically means the lower ranked soldiers are OUGHT TO disobey an order that is completely unacceptable by any human being.

Battle Morals is another important term when we're dealing in a war between a Western country and a third world country/terrorists/etc. In order to maintain our humanism we ought to play the war differently than our enemy. Yes, our enemy will kill innocent civilians - but we won't. Our enemy will use unconventional weapons - but we won't. In the bottom line, in order for us to differ from the terrorists and the reigns of terror, we must be civilized and attempt to battle only those who will hurt us, attempt to hurt us, or have had that thought pass in his head.

Living in a country that has never known peace is not easy. Horrible things happen everyday. Innocent people from both sides die every day. Family and friends find themselves entangled in this blood bath. And what can we do? The only thing we can do is continue to live and try not to turn into beasts (that's surely not an easy task).

While I wouldn't go as far as accusing the soldiers for what happened (for the reasons Aristotle mentioned above), perhaps it is time for them to look at themselves and reflect on what they have become - beasts. From my experience, people who turned into beasts during wartime, have stayed like this long long after the war, and have failed to find their place in society, no matter how bright they were.

In my opinion, it's in the USA's best interest to avoid having soldiers do such things - for the soldiers sake. Even in a country they are hated for just being Americans, and when they fear for their life every second, they must stay humans.

The only reason this is being thrown at us in the media is because of the extreme opposition to the war by many Bush hating liberals who want to blame him and any of the other republican heroes who have made much of this war a success thus far.

There is nothing shocking to me about the mistreatment of prisoners during a time of war. My stepfather told many stories about his captivity during vietnam, so I know that things happen and that humiliation is a form of punishment utilized against the enemy. But, I've always had trust in our military men and women to be moral and professionally driven to accomplish a mission. These soldiers who committed these acts are not the kinds of military men and women that I've ever been around.

It's appalling that any of our soldiers would do such things, but it seems like the media is expecting some sort of "OMG! I'm SHOCKED!!" outrage or something like that. Then when you have leaders stand up and say that they are looking into it and that those responsible for the mistreatment of prisoners will be dealt with, the general media reaction is like, "That's it???!"

Um, yea. That's about it. What do they expect people to do? Reverse time and make it NOT happen? The only responsible thing that we can do is to punish those abusers and make them an example so that it doesn't happen again or that the likelihood of it happening again is very minimal. I feel like the expectation of some is that America should be like, "Uh oh...this is bad stuff...we are sorry that these soldiers did this to the men trying to kill them...we are sorry for this war and all this outrage that these soldiers are creating...we have a war going on, so we didn't notice that this sort of thing was happening...we were too busy seeing people get killed that we failed to see such mistreatment going on...we'll end this war and go home now...because we are so sorry."

My personal opinion, not that it matters, is that those dumbasses should get an even harsher punishment just for taking the video and pictures and giving their own country a blackeye. The abuse was bad enough...but taking incriminating videos and pictures is just appallingly stupid and irresponsible to the rest of American society.

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In regards to the prison fiasco....orders were issued. It's the duty of the lower ranks to obey the orders of a higher rank. Those of the lower rank are to assume that the order is a legal one, for it's the responsibility of the one issuing the order to ensure it's legal.

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I have no idea where you conjured that from, but American soldiers are obligated to clarify the order, inform their superior that they believe the order to be illegal, disobey the order if the order stands, and report through the chain of command such orders that are believed to be in violation of either the Geneva Convention or the International Law of Land Warfare.

"I was just following orders" did not work for the Nazis at Nuremberg or American soldiers at My Lai. That is a valid legal defense (in the military), but not if the order was known to be illegal or a reasonable person would have known the order to be illegal.

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Originally posted by Pyrosama
Then when you have leaders stand up and say that they are looking into it and that those responsible for the mistreatment of prisoners will be dealt with, the general media reaction is like, "That's it???!"

Um, yea. That's about it. What do they expect people to do? Reverse time and make it NOT happen? The only responsible thing that we can do is to punish those abusers and make them an example so that it doesn't happen again or that the likelihood of it happening again is very minimal.

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That is my opinion on the matter as well. I also agree with your point that the punishment should be additionally harsh since their photographing/videoing of it all just adds to the callousness of it.

What I despise is the way this is being twisted to extreme political ends. Some are trying to act like this is "no big deal" and others are trying to blame this on Bush. *boggle*

This is a problem. It is a nasty problem. But in America, we DEAL WITH PROBLEMS and resolve them. We fix things that are broken. We improve things that are not operating properly.

When we obsess over the blame game more than the solution, we become worthless and ineffectual as a society.

Valthaeris, there are times when orders can be questioned. If you think the order is illegal, you do notify your chain of command and (if necessary) your Commanding Officer's boss. But you still carry out the order.

If a soldier had the option to question and disobey an order, their would be chaos in the field. Imagine a sailor questioning his CO about the firing of a missile....

I "dug this up" from research.

As for the Bush haters, I'm one of them. Bush has, so far, committed two acts that are grounds for impeachment. It's just that no politician has the guts to stand up and start the process. For example, his diverting of funds to fight the Iraq war. That money, approved by Congress, was to fight Osama and his men.

Then there is the actions he has taken during the 9/11 attack. He orders all airlines to be grounded, but then authorizes certain planes to fly Arabs and such out of the country. *boggle*

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Originally posted by Ganthrol
As for the Bush haters, I'm one of them. Bush has, so far, committed two acts that are grounds for impeachment. It's just that no politician has the guts to stand up and start the process. For example, his diverting of funds to fight the Iraq war. That money, approved by Congress, was to fight Osama and his men.

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What??????

This is unadulterated BULLSHIT.

Congress voted on money SPECIFICALLY for the Iraqi War and rebuilding.

Furthermore, the entire middle east is one big problem. You don't fix terrorism just by getting Osama Bin Laden. If you think that you are SEVERELY deluded.

Until there are liberal democracies in the Middle East we will ALWAYS have these problems. As long as the Middle Eastern countries are tyrranies, monarchies, and dictatorships, there will never be any hope for peace.

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Originally posted by Ganthrol
Then there is the actions he has taken during the 9/11 attack. He orders all airlines to be grounded, but then authorizes certain planes to fly Arabs and such out of the country. *boggle*

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What in the HELL are you talking about and what does that have to do with ANYTHING? The above example sounds like Item #487 from Moveon.org or something.

Both of your examples are things you might consider grounds not to vote for him but they are not even CLOSE to impeachable offenses.

Just because a President does things you do not like does not make them reasons to impeach.

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Valthaeris, there are times when orders can be questioned. If you think the order is illegal, you do notify your chain of command and (if necessary) your Commanding Officer's boss. But you still carry out the order.

If a soldier had the option to question and disobey an order, their would be chaos in the field. Imagine a sailor questioning his CO about the firing of a missile....

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You might be on to something, if you had occasion to actually read what I wrote, to wit:

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...in violation of either the Geneva Convention or the International Laws of Land Warfare.

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If your first line supervisor orders you to line up ten EPWs against a wall and put two in the back of their heads, you tell the CO on the grounds that you think that may just not be kosher, and he says "Illegal order? Nah, fuck 'em!", you do not do it anyway. I am not sure what 'research' you found to substantiate that, though I am sure it is intriguing.

Soldiers do not have the 'option' to question orders. They are obligated to disobey orders that are in violation of either the Geneva Convention or the ILLW. To use your own example:

If a sailor disagrees with the firing of a missile against a predetermined target, that is a damn shame for the sailor. The target has already been approved and cleared by the chain of command who exercises command authority over that launch and an operational law specialist who is authorized to say "Yes, we can blow that building straight to hell" and has already determined the legality of such an action. At that point, disagreeing with the morality of such an order becomes an irrelevant sidenote. If it's a military target, it's a military target. Sometimes life is hard like that.

my thoughts were...what kind of a dumbass, or dumbasses would risk taking photos of this sort of stuff!!
These types of things always blow up in their faces!

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my thoughts were...what kind of a dumbass, or dumbasses would risk taking photos of this sort of stuff!!

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My thoughts exactly. Moving away from political crap...why in the first place did these American soldiers, who are risking their lives fighting in Iraq, taking photos of nude detainees.

I have seen the pictures and they are quick shocking.

And to take it further away from the topic. In war I pity two people, the soldiers who have to die and the civilians. This pictures that were first published by the Arab news network, Al-Jazheera, have already angered so many people including myself. If I wanted to blame someone in this I would blame the media for overexposure and blowing the topic over the lid.

I think Tony Blair summed it up well:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3698269.stm

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Mr Blair, speaking on French television during a trip to France to mark Europe Day, said: "We apologise deeply to anyone who has been mistreated by any of our soldiers. That is absolutely and totally unacceptable.

"Those who are responsible for this - if they have behaved in this appalling way - they will be punished according to the Army disciplinary rules.

"I hope people understand, though, that is not what the majority of our soldiers are doing there.

"The activities of a few people who have brought shame to their situation should not detract from the work done by the vast majority."

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Hmm...

I heard that picture was posed for. It was a hoax or something. The gun they used was not right, the ammo bag was open and had no ammunition inside and the piss was shadowed.

All this could have been avoided if the war wasn't started at all. One question. Where are the WMDs? Where have they mysteriously disappeared to?

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Originally posted by Jarkis
All this could have been avoided if the war wasn't started at all. One question. Where are the WMDs? Where have they mysteriously disappeared to?

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First: they have found some, just not anywhere near as much as they expected.

Second: Syria and Iran.

Third: WMDs were never the main reason I supported the move. I supported getting rid of Saddam and putting the first free country in the region (other than Israel). That is the only way to break the cycle.

Here are another couple of cartoons that say this well:

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/000330.html

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/000333.html

One thing to say about the cartoons are, not everyone is like that. Those comics are highly stereotypical view of what Muslims think. they are inaccurate.

As a Muslim, I am angered that Iraqis are being tortured in Abu Ghraib. But I do not rejoice when I see pictures of US soldiers getting killed and civilians being taken hostage.

Those who captured them also are desperate. You come into someones land and expect them to accept you with open arms like that? Those who fight, those militants, are not Saddam's supporters, they fight because they are being oppressed yet again. But this time by a different power. They have not tasted freedom. They could not act because of Saddam's reign. But once the reign was broken, chaos took over, it was a perfect time to strike. So if you see people getting abducted do not think that Muslims rejoice. We do not. We do not rejoice when bombs explode in Iraq. How many die because of this? US soldiers die needlessly, Iraqis die because of circumstance. Both sides deserve the blame. The USA and the Militants. But this is a war, and in reality war is never good. It is what make men divided and weak. You may have ousted a leader but you have now awaken its darker sides. To be at the sidelines watching atrocities made by both sides is sickening.

This is war, and we have to expect this things. We cannot just be angry and say that it was wrong. Take a step back and look. Because of war both sides suffer. No one really win in war. We just lose. This is just a taste of what is it like to be on either side. You are an American you get captured and killed. You are an Iraqi suspect, you are prone to be tortured. A civilian in Iraq, you might never know when a bomb blows you apart. People in Iraq are coming to terms with them. Their "peaceful" homeland now filled with foreigners who say they are there to free them. But think about it.

What difference did it make. When there was Saddam they were tortured when they were "suspected" to do something wrong. When now a new power is in Iraq, temporary power that is, they are still being put in detention when they are "suspected" of being a terrorist. So sometimes it raises questions for the reason the Americans are there and by this pictures those questions are being answered in a negative way.

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Originally posted by Jarkis

All this could have been avoided if the war wasn't started at all.

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All of this could have been avoided had Saddam allowed the UN inspecters to continue their job. If he didn't have WMD (which is what the UN was there to confirm in the first place) then there is no need to refuse to cooperate. We gave him plenty of time to conform to the UN resolutions and he did not.

That's like saying "my brother wouldn't have died in a car accident if they hadn't invented cars."

If memory serves. I remember that Saddam did let them finish the work. They concluded their work in fact. I am quite sure of that.

In fact they concluded that there was nothing, no traces of WMD.

Then again its all memory. I will go research that later.

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Originally posted by Jarkis
To be at the sidelines watching atrocities made by both sides is sickening.

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That's what happens when you refuse to solve your own problems. Someone else eventually shows up to solve them for you.

Perhaps the Middle Eastern Muslims should have taken action on their own sometime in the last few decades.

But no, its far easier to focus on Israel and support homicide bombers than to overthrow tyrants. Obsessing over Israel sure has gotten the Middle Eastern nations pretty far since 1963. 41 years have gone by and the Middle Eastern countries are as useless as ever. Other than oil, they are completely worthless nations. They have no industry of any worth, they contribute nothing to the world scientific community, and they let dictators destroy and pillage their rich historical heritage. Nice focus there, people.

Perhaps the Middle Eastern Muslims should create free nations instead of tyrannies. The only free nation in the region is Israel, and (hopefully soon) Iraq. The rest are ruled by dictators. Their main tool of control is to breed hatred of the West. It is a pretty simple formula. In order to maintain power, dictators breed sufficient hatred of the West to distract the people from their real enslavers- the rulers of their own countries.

They've had hundreds of years to solve the problem on their own. They didn't. Now their problem affects the rest of the world. Thus, the rest of the world has to act.

The schools teach absolute hatred of the West for no reason other than a desire to destroy the "infidel." This is nothing but an incredibly simplistic way to control the populace and maintain tyrannical power.

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Jarkis wrote:

Those comics are highly stereotypical view of what Muslims think. they are inaccurate.

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Those comics are dead on accurate. They aren't referring to Muslims specifically. They are referring to all people who hate America, the West, and by extension freedom and democracy.

As far as Muslims not rejoicing when America suffers, please take your head out of the sand. When the 9/11 attacks happened, the Middle East rejoiced. The fact that you and perhaps some people you know did not is the only reason there is HOPE for a solution short of genocide.

But do not pretend that the joy is not incredibly widespread whenever something evil happens to the United States or the west.

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Jarkis wrote:

If memory serves. I remember that Saddam did let them finish the work. They concluded their work in fact. I am quite sure of that.

In fact they concluded that there was nothing, no traces of WMD.

Then again its all memory. I will go research that later.

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Your memory does not serve, or perhaps you watch too much Al-jazera. Saddam refused to comply with over 14 UN resolutions and that was the final straw. The fact that he massacred millions of innocents and was stealing billions from the Oil for Food program that was supposed to be used to feed his people were additional justifications.

I'm as anti-Bush as the next guy, but I don't blame the atrocities being commited on him. The only ones to blame for it are the officers that gave the orders and the soldiers that obeyed them. The way I see it, sick fucks are going to be sick fucks. If they weren't in Iraq, they'd likely be doing something equally as disgusting somewhere else.

On the other hand, Bush is the top of the chain of command, so he does have responsibilities in the matter. He has to make ammends for the actions of his troops, and he has to make sure that actions like this stop happening. To be honest, it sounds like he's trying to do just that.

All in all, it sounds like a case of sick fucks being sick fucks. It could have happened under any leader, and in any country.

Valthaeris is quite correct when it come to following a superior's orders that one knows/believes is an illegal act. Regardless of how far these events happen to go up the food chain, you can damn well bet that the UCMJ will, and should, take firm action with those in their ranks should they be found guilty. One thing that seems to be conveniantly missed, is the fact that the system WORKED. The problem was found, obviously not soon enough, and was dealt with swiftly. The story itself is not even new, only the pictures. And how were these leaked before the legal process could take it's course? These incidents were reported on twice that I know of. It may have been in January when the first reports of this came out. Then in March it came up again about the legal actions being taken against the accused soldiers. They are still only accused right? 30-some bodies beneath a house and the press reports as '...jury selection continues in the trial of 'suspected' serial murderer John Wayne Gacy...' Their day in court will come. Hard labor in rural Kansas with a bunch of pissed off 'Jarhead' types, who know exactly why you're there, is nothing I would wish on anybody, but as they say, 'you made your bed...'

The selective outrage w/the 'Hate America First' crowd is by no means surprising. NOW all of a sudden they give a rats ass what happens to the Iraqi people? Human chipper-shreaders, using, oh yeah, almost forgot, 'non-existant' chemical weapons on women and children, mass graves with estimates anywhere from 400k to 1 million bodies, just to name off the tiniest smidge of the numerous atrocities commited by Saddam and his thugs, doesn't raise an eyebrow? Hell, these photos really aren't anymore shocking than taxpayer funded crap from the likes of Mapplethorpe and friends.

Some really outstanding quotes in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer from some Iraqi's living in the area on their reaction to the photos.

"It's a terrible thing and it adds more wood to the fire," said Hussein Al-Muhanna, who came to the United States in 1993. "(But) to me, it's not the issue I have to worry about. To me, the main issue is Iraq's future."

Imad al-Turfy, another Everett resident, shows no sympathy for the prisoners, saying their treatment paled when compared with the horrors inflicted under Saddam Hussein's regime.

"They raped our women. They killed our kids. So there's hatred between us, the people here, and the people in Iraq," he said, referring to the Shiite Muslims who emigrated and the Sunni Muslims who ruled Iraq under Saddam.

"Anything coming to them would make me happy."

Al-Muhanna and al-Turfy were among about 20 Iraqi men who met last night to talk politics, discuss their jobs and offer opinions on the latest headlines.

Al-Turfy said he could "tell a million stories" about Saddam's abuses: the people who were blown apart by dynamite or thrown off 20-story buildings, ( This one is new to me and totally blows my mind) or the family that was buried alive in a car in Baghdad.

"You can't imagine," he said. "They killed us like rats. Like anything cheap."

So to view photos of prisoners in humiliating positions -- one month after seeing another chilling image, the charred and mutilated corpses of Americans hanging from a bridge over the Euphrates River -- was "worth it, because they did the same to us," al-Turfy said, a comment echoed by several other Iraqis.

Okay.

First of all. About the west-haters thing. Only militants do that and those who are so narrow minded in thinking.

But sometimes you can't blame them, middle-eastern people. They are constantly being misinformed by the media and the are very backward. The problem on not trying to advance themselves is not because of only greedy "tyrants" but also because of being trying not to follow the western culture.

Clothes that women are so scantily clad. They expose themselves so much. Alcohol, drugs and etc etc. All came from the west. Therefore the Religious leaders try to tell the people to keep away from this habits and that got twisted into a pile of bullshit where the west are infidels and they should all die. Islam teaches of racial,religious harmony. This is something Muslims believe in. If they don't, they are not Muslims, they are radicals. We are NOT happy to see people, regardless of citizenship, die either. Which human in the right state of mind does? Again. It is unfair to brand the Middle-easterners west-haters. We only see part of the picture. The media is not helping with showing so many west-haters and negative images.

We are not there to see what the people feel. i have a friend who when to Afganistan to help, and they are happy for the USA presence. I have been to Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The people generally accept the west. Countries like Yemen, Qatar, UAE, Bahrain.

And there are Muslims that have modernized and have taken up western cultures but still retained their faith. I don't drink, eat pork. I pray five times a day and I may be going to hajj in a few years after my education. That is the difference. Most Muslims today, even in the Middle East, receive education in both religion and general methods that shun people from building hate for Jews or Americans. And this Muslims are found throughout the Middle-east. They are the new breed. They still keep religion and they modernized. Islam also teaches to evolve to suit the needs of yourself and the community.

What leads to west-haters are those who are not secular. And I have to admit that there are a lot of them however most are simple-minded and are still in the agriculture industry, self-sustaining. They are misinformed because they are too far from the city centre and what knowledge they get are twisted easily because they are simple. But they are no harm to you. They rather live peacefully then fight a lost cause.

We see a double sided picture now. One side is war, and militants. One the other, we see Muslims living in peace with the westerners. Not wanting trouble. THIS Muslims are the majority in the Middle East nowadays.

West-hating-middle-eastern muslims can only be found in spots of Middle-east like Iran, Iraq, Afghan. Even in Syria the majority of the people do not think like this anymore. No. I have to disagree with you yet again that Muslims think that way. You have been misinformed, just like those farmers. I am sorry, but we do not think that way anymore.

Apparently there has been an American Civialian who was working on repairing communication centers who was beheaded in retalliation for the photos.

All I can say is that as bad as it is, it's not unexpected. The fucking stupid ass soldiers who did that shit should have known that ANYTHING they did to give fuel to an extremist group would be used. While they are not guilty of the actual beheading I do feel they should understand that they were partly to blame for giving the necassary excuses (In the minds of the extremists who did this) for it to happen.



About the Beheading


Now, while I'm not gonna stand behind AOL's awesome news reporting team (<==sarcasm) the base story is there. Guy was beheaded by militant extremists claiming to be part of Al-Queda in response to the photos.

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Originally posted by Jarkis
Clothes that women are so scantily clad.

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Oh no. God forbid women have the right to wear what they want. Oh wait, I guess that's the theory- that "God" forbids it.

I'm not sorry to inform you that women are equal to men and any such standard that applies only to women is inherently wrong.

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Originally posted by Jarkis
Alcohol, drugs and etc etc. All came from the west.

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I almost wasted my time typing up a huge response here, but this is such a ludicrous statement it doesn't even deserve my time.

Please do some research before you say absolutely ridiculous and false things like this.

Start by looking up where beer, hashish, and opium (and therefore heroin) were invented.

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Originally posted by Jarkis
Therefore the Religious leaders try to tell the people to keep away from this habits and that got twisted into a pile of bullshit where the west are infidels and they should all die

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Wrong. They preach hatred of the West to distract the people from the real enemy: their own leaders.

It is an ancient diversionary tactic used by oppressive leaders: give your people something to hate more than yourself and you can maintain control.

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Originally posted by Jarkis
We only see part of the picture.

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Ok then. So what are you doing to put Al-Jazera out of business so you can start seeing the whole picture?

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Originally posted by Jarkis
West-hating-middle-eastern muslims can only be found in spots of Middle-east like Iran, Iraq, Afghan. Even in Syria the majority of the people do not think like this anymore. No. I have to disagree with you yet again that Muslims think that way. You have been misinformed, just like those farmers. I am sorry, but we do not think that way anymore.

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And Saudi Arabia. And Jordan. And Egypt. And UAE. Etc. etc.

I wish you were right that Middle Eastern Muslims were not still being brainwashed with irrational hatred of the west. Some of your own statements at the top of your post (about women, drugs, and alcohol) are evidence that the lies and hate continue to persist.

About the WMD, one reason that we're not finding as many as we thought we would is that half of the things we're finding aren't being labeled as weapons. Like the giant storages of "insectides" that can be made into chemical weapons almost immediately.

When I saw this I thought of Germany when their army was severly restricted after WWI. As the Nazi army began to build, they started building "recreational" all terrain vehicles and airplanes, that were built to be armed and armored in a short amount of time. So that when they needed them, they had hundreds of makeshift tanks and bombers.

It's a pretty sad topic all around, but I think I should add my perspective anyhow.

As an Australian I'd like to think we get at least a slightly objective perspective on everything that happens. Because of this and everything I've seen over the past few years, I was pretty adamantly against Bush in all respects. However, this dealing with the photos and such has most definitely changed that. I still think he's a poor leader, but he's by a country mile the lesser of all the evils involved.

The main reason for this was something that seems to have been overlooked by most people, and pointedly ignored by those involved on one of the sides.

When the dealings with the photos happened, people from all throughout the middle-east started jumping up and down, blaming Bush, blaming America as a whole, and demanding an apology for what had been done. Not two weeks later Bush was on TV to the middle-east apologising to those that were harmed by what was done, and promising the offenders involved would be delt with "to the full extent of the law". Not the strongest apology, but one he didn't have to give, and an honorably gesture. Even though this happened, there were statements made by crazed leaders in these countries promising that "All female americans captured will be raped and tortured, all male americans captured will be tortured and killed.". THIS I found a LOT more sickening than the photos I saw. Things that admittedly no human being should ever have to experience, however the promise of torture, rape and death are really in a different league.

Now, in retrospect to look at the other side:

When a group of Americans were dragged through the streets of an iraq city and hung, no apology was demanded by Bush, no promises of death to muslims in America, simple statements were made that those responsible would be brought to justice. When an American was beheaded on video and the video sent to the White House, no apology of the leaders of the offending countries was demanded, no threats against muslims in America, simply a statement that those involved would be punished for their crimes against humanity.
I could list another dozen incidents just the same, but hopefully I've made my point clear.

It was upon realizing this juxtaposition was when I ceased to let my heart bleed for the things that were being done to these monsters of humanity. How people can rant and rave about these photos, lead marches against US occupation when there are things far worse happening in these places, done to American soldiers or even their own people is beyond me. I fail to see how anyone can side with those doing these things and blame Americans for it with a straight face.

As for Bush, I think he has one of the worst domestic policies of any western country ever, however he has my admiration in how he's handled this at least.

Dol

Great post, Dolencion, and entirely correct.

US soldiers put panties on prisoners' heads -> US is teh EVUL! Die yanqui pigdogs!
Dictators/terrorists murder people by the thousands -> it's multiculturalism, man! they aren't democratic, let's give them a free pass and not mention it!

It's a very common, and sickening, double standard.

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Originally posted by Aristotle
Oh no. God forbid women have the right to wear what they want. Oh wait, I guess that's the theory- that "God" forbids it.

I'm not sorry to inform you that women are equal to men and any such standard that applies only to women is inherently wrong.

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And I'm sorry to inform you that the concept of getting women veiled and covered with decent clothes is actually out there to protect them. Back in the days, a guy seeing the hair of a woman would lead him to rape her. Women actually have a lot of respect reserved in Islam, what you see as "women" oppression is only a tradition set from generation to generation, and it sucks if you ask me. Don't go saying it's a religious thing when it's actually a social one.

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Originally posted by Aristotle
Start by looking up where beer, hashish, and opium (and therefore heroin) were invented.

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True, beer was originally invented by Ancient Egyptians as far as I can remember. Don't know about the origins of hash and opium.
Those things nearly vanished by Islam, and it shows: The islamic world was one of the leading civilization out there.

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Originally posted by Aristotle
It is an ancient diversionary tactic used by oppressive leaders: give your people something to hate more than yourself and you can maintain control.

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Sounds a lot like what's going on in the west against muslim as we speak.

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Originally posted by Aristotle
Ok then. So what are you doing to put Al-Jazera out of business so you can start seeing the whole picture?[/B]

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Don't forget CNN and Fox News!

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Originally posted by Aristotle
And Saudi Arabia. And Jordan. And Egypt. And UAE. Etc. etc.

I wish you were right that Middle Eastern Muslims were not still being brainwashed with irrational hatred of the west. Some of your own statements at the top of your post (about women, drugs, and alcohol) are evidence that the lies and hate continue to persist.

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I'm pretty sure Jarkis didn't mean that. What's frustrating, and trust me, a lot of us Muslim agree with what I'm going to say, is that we leave out the good traits of the western civilization. I don't know about other middle-eastern countries, but egyptian brains (and trust me, there are a lot out there), had to leave the country and seek recognition in the west. Instead of getting more freedom on our creativity, we get pornos (and don't try to educate me on what the origins of porn were, we all know America probably has the biggest industry out there). The other real problem with the arab world is that women imitate blindly what they think is "freedom" in the west. The tradition set by Islam forbids that we watch obcenities, that we engage in them. Is that an oppression of freedom? I don't think so. That's trying to adjust a messed up society into a more productive one. Back when Islam was dominant in the arab world, the islamic world was very advanced in science, medicine, astrology, psychology, philosphy, etc... Basically, everything. So I doubt anything strictly set by Islam would corrupt or destroy the society we live in. Besides, that image of "hatred" you get from our side is, and I insist, the results of some brainwashing you are submitted to. Good luck if you're going to believe that, after all you're brainwashed. There's a sourat in Islam that BOLDLY SAYS (and it was destined to said "infidels) : "I don't worship what you worship. You don't worship what I worship. You have your religion and I have mine." . Saying that Muslims, even those from the middle-east, are going against that is absurd.

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Originally posted by Solubynn
And I'm sorry to inform you that the concept of getting women veiled and covered with decent clothes is actually out there to protect them. Back in the days, a guy seeing the hair of a woman would lead him to rape her. Women actually have a lot of respect reserved in Islam, what you see as "women" oppression is only a tradition set from generation to generation, and it sucks if you ask me. Don't go saying it's a religious thing when it's actually a social one.

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I am completely disgusted. I had to read this twice to even believe it was typed at all. What kind of paternalistic crap is this? We are talking about grown WOMEN here, not little girls. If you truly respected woman, as you claim, you would respect their decision to dress as they wish, with full faith in their ability to intelligently weigh the "risk" of provoking some otherwise decent man into raping them when he is overwhelmed by lust at the sight of her face or hair, as opposed to going around in a scarf and veil and only risking rape by the "real" rapists out there. Such a sentiment is NOT a tradition founded in resepect as you claim, it is a classic example of misogyny. You are right, though, such a sentiment is not a religious thing, but rather a social one. Indeed, such beliefs are just further evidence of a morally bankrupt culture. Many Muslims would be just as apalled by what you typed as I would. It's just too bad, as in many other groups, the most vocal representatives of Islam to the west are such monsters.


DISCLAIMER: The "you" above is intended for whoever believes such noxious brain waste, not Solubynn personally.

What's upsetting here is that from Solubynn's above post, it seems obvious that many muslims are not privvy to the huge efforts made by the governments of western countries to avoid discrimination against muslims around the world.

However, you're talking about brainwashing people in western countries to dislike muslims, let me give you this perspective:

Footage had been seen of thousands upon thousands of people in muslim countries rejoicing at atrocities that had been done to the USA, burning effigies of Bush and the American Flag, firing guns into the air to celebrate. Before you claim that the media was to blame for making these people look worse than they were, think about what the media has done for the Western image with the recent photo situation. Sure, they do it. However, it's a double-edged knife.

Shortly after this (and I can only speak for my own country) there were a lot of reported attacks against schools that taught a lot of muslim students, muslim people, houses known to be owned by muslims. As soon as this started, the police were ordered to crack down on it, offenders were dealt with more harshly than if it was a random attack. The situation was, in a matter of days, brought under control. The Prime Minister himself went on National Television and made a speech detailing how it was unacceptable behaviour to attack our own countrymen in that way. What others were doing in places thousands of miles away wasn't in any way to impact peoples views of muslims in Australia.

Yeah, that sure sounds like we're being brainwashed to hate muslims, that's why millions and millions and millions of westerners around the world protested in defense of muslim countries, that's why the leaders of western countries have immediately defended muslims. That's why, as is better detailed in my post above, there have been no threats directed to muslim groups in any way, only to specific people that are guilty of heanous crimes.

So, before concluding that we're being brainwashed, consider that on one hand we have massive groups of people firing guns into the air and chanting and laughing and celebrating the deaths and hatred of america and other western countries, and on the other hand we have the leaders of those countries defending muslims and promising severe punishment for atrocities committed against them, here or anywhere in the world.

Also, as a side note, defending the actions and integrity of men who need to cover a woman from head to toe in order to avoid raping them... Hmm. I know this is from a time long passed, but I can't help feeling a little bit unsure of the validity of that call.

Dol

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What's upsetting here is that from Solubynn's above post, it seems obvious that many muslims are not privvy to the huge efforts made by the governments of western countries to avoid discrimination against muslims around the world.

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Sadly. I have to agree that people in the Middle East are getting misinformed. But from where I come from the Muslims are glad that governments in the West takes steps to ensure there is no religious discrimination. Our mosques preach for peace here. We tell our faith to follow the light.

My previous posts may be trying to protect my faith but it is just that sometimes its the few bad ones that make the rest seem bad.

What is most upsetting about the supposedly vast majority of "moderate Muslims" is that when Muslim terrorists slaughter people or fanatical mullahs preach death and destruction, you don't hear one peep out of the "moderates". Compare that to the shitstorm that rises any time America does something even remotely questionable, or whenever Israel does anything at all.

If you want us to believe there are moderate Muslims out there, they need to make themselves heard.

Hmm.

Make ourselves heard. Yeah. But the leaders are afraid to voice it out. Why? Because you have seen what happen to those who speak out against the "jihad" the fanatics give death threats to our community. Even in Singapore. There were plans to blow up a major rail system eventhough the majority of people lived there were Muslims. Muslim Leaders are therefore afraid to voice their concerns because of the reprecussions they may inflict on the community they preach. Dozens of this incidents happen in Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia. They think that we are infidels because we "support whatever" the "devils of the west" do. I feel that it is not the fault of the leaders but they do not want any harm to be done to the community. In Singapore it is not so bad as we are very good allies with our Muslim neigbours Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunei and also have ties that are very close to the USA.

Worst off then us are the Saudis, close allies with the USA. You have seen what happened recently? The attacks in Riyadh. Eventhough they were aimed at Internationals they knew that the compund held mostly locals. Why did they not care? Well because they thought of them as infidels.

Here is the article.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...5rI&refer=home

So are you saying that the (apparent) moderate majority is held hostage by a minority of fanatics? Somehow this seems to be a common theme in Muslim countries, being afraid to speak out against the fanatics and dictators. I dunno, I just can't get myself to feel any sympathy for that sort of attitude. Western civilization has achieved democracy and liberty because people were not afraid to speak out, and eventually their ideals prevailed. People in Muslim countries need to realize the same. Islam badly needs its own Reformation.

Hopefully the example of Iraq will spur such developments. In this regard, when Iraqis speak out against the US coalition forces, it's in a way a good thing, because it means that they are not afraid to do so. After all, only a year ago if they did the same they'd likely get their entire family murdered. They have realized now that expressing their political opinion won't mean insant death sentence, and that's a positive development.