Idiots in Iraq and their Moronic Photos

Valthaeris is quite correct when it come to following a superior's orders that one knows/believes is an illegal act. Regardless of how far these events happen to go up the food chain, you can damn well bet that the UCMJ will, and should, take firm action with those in their ranks should they be found guilty. One thing that seems to be conveniantly missed, is the fact that the system WORKED. The problem was found, obviously not soon enough, and was dealt with swiftly. The story itself is not even new, only the pictures. And how were these leaked before the legal process could take it's course? These incidents were reported on twice that I know of. It may have been in January when the first reports of this came out. Then in March it came up again about the legal actions being taken against the accused soldiers. They are still only accused right? 30-some bodies beneath a house and the press reports as '...jury selection continues in the trial of 'suspected' serial murderer John Wayne Gacy...' Their day in court will come. Hard labor in rural Kansas with a bunch of pissed off 'Jarhead' types, who know exactly why you're there, is nothing I would wish on anybody, but as they say, 'you made your bed...'

The selective outrage w/the 'Hate America First' crowd is by no means surprising. NOW all of a sudden they give a rats ass what happens to the Iraqi people? Human chipper-shreaders, using, oh yeah, almost forgot, 'non-existant' chemical weapons on women and children, mass graves with estimates anywhere from 400k to 1 million bodies, just to name off the tiniest smidge of the numerous atrocities commited by Saddam and his thugs, doesn't raise an eyebrow? Hell, these photos really aren't anymore shocking than taxpayer funded crap from the likes of Mapplethorpe and friends.

Some really outstanding quotes in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer from some Iraqi's living in the area on their reaction to the photos.

"It's a terrible thing and it adds more wood to the fire," said Hussein Al-Muhanna, who came to the United States in 1993. "(But) to me, it's not the issue I have to worry about. To me, the main issue is Iraq's future."

Imad al-Turfy, another Everett resident, shows no sympathy for the prisoners, saying their treatment paled when compared with the horrors inflicted under Saddam Hussein's regime.

"They raped our women. They killed our kids. So there's hatred between us, the people here, and the people in Iraq," he said, referring to the Shiite Muslims who emigrated and the Sunni Muslims who ruled Iraq under Saddam.

"Anything coming to them would make me happy."

Al-Muhanna and al-Turfy were among about 20 Iraqi men who met last night to talk politics, discuss their jobs and offer opinions on the latest headlines.

Al-Turfy said he could "tell a million stories" about Saddam's abuses: the people who were blown apart by dynamite or thrown off 20-story buildings, ( This one is new to me and totally blows my mind) or the family that was buried alive in a car in Baghdad.

"You can't imagine," he said. "They killed us like rats. Like anything cheap."

So to view photos of prisoners in humiliating positions -- one month after seeing another chilling image, the charred and mutilated corpses of Americans hanging from a bridge over the Euphrates River -- was "worth it, because they did the same to us," al-Turfy said, a comment echoed by several other Iraqis.

Okay.

First of all. About the west-haters thing. Only militants do that and those who are so narrow minded in thinking.

But sometimes you can't blame them, middle-eastern people. They are constantly being misinformed by the media and the are very backward. The problem on not trying to advance themselves is not because of only greedy "tyrants" but also because of being trying not to follow the western culture.

Clothes that women are so scantily clad. They expose themselves so much. Alcohol, drugs and etc etc. All came from the west. Therefore the Religious leaders try to tell the people to keep away from this habits and that got twisted into a pile of bullshit where the west are infidels and they should all die. Islam teaches of racial,religious harmony. This is something Muslims believe in. If they don't, they are not Muslims, they are radicals. We are NOT happy to see people, regardless of citizenship, die either. Which human in the right state of mind does? Again. It is unfair to brand the Middle-easterners west-haters. We only see part of the picture. The media is not helping with showing so many west-haters and negative images.

We are not there to see what the people feel. i have a friend who when to Afganistan to help, and they are happy for the USA presence. I have been to Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The people generally accept the west. Countries like Yemen, Qatar, UAE, Bahrain.

And there are Muslims that have modernized and have taken up western cultures but still retained their faith. I don't drink, eat pork. I pray five times a day and I may be going to hajj in a few years after my education. That is the difference. Most Muslims today, even in the Middle East, receive education in both religion and general methods that shun people from building hate for Jews or Americans. And this Muslims are found throughout the Middle-east. They are the new breed. They still keep religion and they modernized. Islam also teaches to evolve to suit the needs of yourself and the community.

What leads to west-haters are those who are not secular. And I have to admit that there are a lot of them however most are simple-minded and are still in the agriculture industry, self-sustaining. They are misinformed because they are too far from the city centre and what knowledge they get are twisted easily because they are simple. But they are no harm to you. They rather live peacefully then fight a lost cause.

We see a double sided picture now. One side is war, and militants. One the other, we see Muslims living in peace with the westerners. Not wanting trouble. THIS Muslims are the majority in the Middle East nowadays.

West-hating-middle-eastern muslims can only be found in spots of Middle-east like Iran, Iraq, Afghan. Even in Syria the majority of the people do not think like this anymore. No. I have to disagree with you yet again that Muslims think that way. You have been misinformed, just like those farmers. I am sorry, but we do not think that way anymore.

Apparently there has been an American Civialian who was working on repairing communication centers who was beheaded in retalliation for the photos.

All I can say is that as bad as it is, it's not unexpected. The fucking stupid ass soldiers who did that shit should have known that ANYTHING they did to give fuel to an extremist group would be used. While they are not guilty of the actual beheading I do feel they should understand that they were partly to blame for giving the necassary excuses (In the minds of the extremists who did this) for it to happen.



About the Beheading


Now, while I'm not gonna stand behind AOL's awesome news reporting team (<==sarcasm) the base story is there. Guy was beheaded by militant extremists claiming to be part of Al-Queda in response to the photos.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jarkis
Clothes that women are so scantily clad.

---

Oh no. God forbid women have the right to wear what they want. Oh wait, I guess that's the theory- that "God" forbids it.

I'm not sorry to inform you that women are equal to men and any such standard that applies only to women is inherently wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jarkis
Alcohol, drugs and etc etc. All came from the west.

---

I almost wasted my time typing up a huge response here, but this is such a ludicrous statement it doesn't even deserve my time.

Please do some research before you say absolutely ridiculous and false things like this.

Start by looking up where beer, hashish, and opium (and therefore heroin) were invented.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jarkis
Therefore the Religious leaders try to tell the people to keep away from this habits and that got twisted into a pile of bullshit where the west are infidels and they should all die

---

Wrong. They preach hatred of the West to distract the people from the real enemy: their own leaders.

It is an ancient diversionary tactic used by oppressive leaders: give your people something to hate more than yourself and you can maintain control.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jarkis
We only see part of the picture.

---

Ok then. So what are you doing to put Al-Jazera out of business so you can start seeing the whole picture?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jarkis
West-hating-middle-eastern muslims can only be found in spots of Middle-east like Iran, Iraq, Afghan. Even in Syria the majority of the people do not think like this anymore. No. I have to disagree with you yet again that Muslims think that way. You have been misinformed, just like those farmers. I am sorry, but we do not think that way anymore.

---

And Saudi Arabia. And Jordan. And Egypt. And UAE. Etc. etc.

I wish you were right that Middle Eastern Muslims were not still being brainwashed with irrational hatred of the west. Some of your own statements at the top of your post (about women, drugs, and alcohol) are evidence that the lies and hate continue to persist.

About the WMD, one reason that we're not finding as many as we thought we would is that half of the things we're finding aren't being labeled as weapons. Like the giant storages of "insectides" that can be made into chemical weapons almost immediately.

When I saw this I thought of Germany when their army was severly restricted after WWI. As the Nazi army began to build, they started building "recreational" all terrain vehicles and airplanes, that were built to be armed and armored in a short amount of time. So that when they needed them, they had hundreds of makeshift tanks and bombers.

It's a pretty sad topic all around, but I think I should add my perspective anyhow.

As an Australian I'd like to think we get at least a slightly objective perspective on everything that happens. Because of this and everything I've seen over the past few years, I was pretty adamantly against Bush in all respects. However, this dealing with the photos and such has most definitely changed that. I still think he's a poor leader, but he's by a country mile the lesser of all the evils involved.

The main reason for this was something that seems to have been overlooked by most people, and pointedly ignored by those involved on one of the sides.

When the dealings with the photos happened, people from all throughout the middle-east started jumping up and down, blaming Bush, blaming America as a whole, and demanding an apology for what had been done. Not two weeks later Bush was on TV to the middle-east apologising to those that were harmed by what was done, and promising the offenders involved would be delt with "to the full extent of the law". Not the strongest apology, but one he didn't have to give, and an honorably gesture. Even though this happened, there were statements made by crazed leaders in these countries promising that "All female americans captured will be raped and tortured, all male americans captured will be tortured and killed.". THIS I found a LOT more sickening than the photos I saw. Things that admittedly no human being should ever have to experience, however the promise of torture, rape and death are really in a different league.

Now, in retrospect to look at the other side:

When a group of Americans were dragged through the streets of an iraq city and hung, no apology was demanded by Bush, no promises of death to muslims in America, simple statements were made that those responsible would be brought to justice. When an American was beheaded on video and the video sent to the White House, no apology of the leaders of the offending countries was demanded, no threats against muslims in America, simply a statement that those involved would be punished for their crimes against humanity.
I could list another dozen incidents just the same, but hopefully I've made my point clear.

It was upon realizing this juxtaposition was when I ceased to let my heart bleed for the things that were being done to these monsters of humanity. How people can rant and rave about these photos, lead marches against US occupation when there are things far worse happening in these places, done to American soldiers or even their own people is beyond me. I fail to see how anyone can side with those doing these things and blame Americans for it with a straight face.

As for Bush, I think he has one of the worst domestic policies of any western country ever, however he has my admiration in how he's handled this at least.

Dol

Great post, Dolencion, and entirely correct.

US soldiers put panties on prisoners' heads -> US is teh EVUL! Die yanqui pigdogs!
Dictators/terrorists murder people by the thousands -> it's multiculturalism, man! they aren't democratic, let's give them a free pass and not mention it!

It's a very common, and sickening, double standard.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Aristotle
Oh no. God forbid women have the right to wear what they want. Oh wait, I guess that's the theory- that "God" forbids it.

I'm not sorry to inform you that women are equal to men and any such standard that applies only to women is inherently wrong.

---

And I'm sorry to inform you that the concept of getting women veiled and covered with decent clothes is actually out there to protect them. Back in the days, a guy seeing the hair of a woman would lead him to rape her. Women actually have a lot of respect reserved in Islam, what you see as "women" oppression is only a tradition set from generation to generation, and it sucks if you ask me. Don't go saying it's a religious thing when it's actually a social one.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Aristotle
Start by looking up where beer, hashish, and opium (and therefore heroin) were invented.

---

True, beer was originally invented by Ancient Egyptians as far as I can remember. Don't know about the origins of hash and opium.
Those things nearly vanished by Islam, and it shows: The islamic world was one of the leading civilization out there.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Aristotle
It is an ancient diversionary tactic used by oppressive leaders: give your people something to hate more than yourself and you can maintain control.

---

Sounds a lot like what's going on in the west against muslim as we speak.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Aristotle
Ok then. So what are you doing to put Al-Jazera out of business so you can start seeing the whole picture?[/B]

---

Don't forget CNN and Fox News!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Aristotle
And Saudi Arabia. And Jordan. And Egypt. And UAE. Etc. etc.

I wish you were right that Middle Eastern Muslims were not still being brainwashed with irrational hatred of the west. Some of your own statements at the top of your post (about women, drugs, and alcohol) are evidence that the lies and hate continue to persist.

---

I'm pretty sure Jarkis didn't mean that. What's frustrating, and trust me, a lot of us Muslim agree with what I'm going to say, is that we leave out the good traits of the western civilization. I don't know about other middle-eastern countries, but egyptian brains (and trust me, there are a lot out there), had to leave the country and seek recognition in the west. Instead of getting more freedom on our creativity, we get pornos (and don't try to educate me on what the origins of porn were, we all know America probably has the biggest industry out there). The other real problem with the arab world is that women imitate blindly what they think is "freedom" in the west. The tradition set by Islam forbids that we watch obcenities, that we engage in them. Is that an oppression of freedom? I don't think so. That's trying to adjust a messed up society into a more productive one. Back when Islam was dominant in the arab world, the islamic world was very advanced in science, medicine, astrology, psychology, philosphy, etc... Basically, everything. So I doubt anything strictly set by Islam would corrupt or destroy the society we live in. Besides, that image of "hatred" you get from our side is, and I insist, the results of some brainwashing you are submitted to. Good luck if you're going to believe that, after all you're brainwashed. There's a sourat in Islam that BOLDLY SAYS (and it was destined to said "infidels) : "I don't worship what you worship. You don't worship what I worship. You have your religion and I have mine." . Saying that Muslims, even those from the middle-east, are going against that is absurd.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Solubynn
And I'm sorry to inform you that the concept of getting women veiled and covered with decent clothes is actually out there to protect them. Back in the days, a guy seeing the hair of a woman would lead him to rape her. Women actually have a lot of respect reserved in Islam, what you see as "women" oppression is only a tradition set from generation to generation, and it sucks if you ask me. Don't go saying it's a religious thing when it's actually a social one.

---

I am completely disgusted. I had to read this twice to even believe it was typed at all. What kind of paternalistic crap is this? We are talking about grown WOMEN here, not little girls. If you truly respected woman, as you claim, you would respect their decision to dress as they wish, with full faith in their ability to intelligently weigh the "risk" of provoking some otherwise decent man into raping them when he is overwhelmed by lust at the sight of her face or hair, as opposed to going around in a scarf and veil and only risking rape by the "real" rapists out there. Such a sentiment is NOT a tradition founded in resepect as you claim, it is a classic example of misogyny. You are right, though, such a sentiment is not a religious thing, but rather a social one. Indeed, such beliefs are just further evidence of a morally bankrupt culture. Many Muslims would be just as apalled by what you typed as I would. It's just too bad, as in many other groups, the most vocal representatives of Islam to the west are such monsters.


DISCLAIMER: The "you" above is intended for whoever believes such noxious brain waste, not Solubynn personally.

What's upsetting here is that from Solubynn's above post, it seems obvious that many muslims are not privvy to the huge efforts made by the governments of western countries to avoid discrimination against muslims around the world.

However, you're talking about brainwashing people in western countries to dislike muslims, let me give you this perspective:

Footage had been seen of thousands upon thousands of people in muslim countries rejoicing at atrocities that had been done to the USA, burning effigies of Bush and the American Flag, firing guns into the air to celebrate. Before you claim that the media was to blame for making these people look worse than they were, think about what the media has done for the Western image with the recent photo situation. Sure, they do it. However, it's a double-edged knife.

Shortly after this (and I can only speak for my own country) there were a lot of reported attacks against schools that taught a lot of muslim students, muslim people, houses known to be owned by muslims. As soon as this started, the police were ordered to crack down on it, offenders were dealt with more harshly than if it was a random attack. The situation was, in a matter of days, brought under control. The Prime Minister himself went on National Television and made a speech detailing how it was unacceptable behaviour to attack our own countrymen in that way. What others were doing in places thousands of miles away wasn't in any way to impact peoples views of muslims in Australia.

Yeah, that sure sounds like we're being brainwashed to hate muslims, that's why millions and millions and millions of westerners around the world protested in defense of muslim countries, that's why the leaders of western countries have immediately defended muslims. That's why, as is better detailed in my post above, there have been no threats directed to muslim groups in any way, only to specific people that are guilty of heanous crimes.

So, before concluding that we're being brainwashed, consider that on one hand we have massive groups of people firing guns into the air and chanting and laughing and celebrating the deaths and hatred of america and other western countries, and on the other hand we have the leaders of those countries defending muslims and promising severe punishment for atrocities committed against them, here or anywhere in the world.

Also, as a side note, defending the actions and integrity of men who need to cover a woman from head to toe in order to avoid raping them... Hmm. I know this is from a time long passed, but I can't help feeling a little bit unsure of the validity of that call.

Dol